Pakistan's Declining Economy Since 2008

[SMC]

You're only mentioning one or two airports out of all in india. He is talking about the overall situation.

 

[TechLahore]

The way you arrived at this conclusion is humorous to say the least. Do come to India if you get a chance.

Yes, you are right. First hand accounts are a ridiculous way to arrive at a conclusion! On the other hand, I should accept the word of folks from India - whom I don't even know - regarding a subject they would most likely be biased about.

I do appreciate the invitation you extended, though. India isn't going to be on my itin in the near term, but you never know what the future holds.

 

[RiazHaq]

Yes, you are right. First hand accounts are a ridiculous way to arrive at a conclusion! On the other hand, I should accept the word of folks from India - whom I don't even know - regarding a subject they would most likely be biased about.

I do appreciate the invitation you extended, though. India isn't going to be on my itin in the near term, but you never know what the future holds.

Dalrymple and Sikand are speaking from their personal experiences of traveling in India and Pakistan, and I agree with them based on my own first hand knowledge.

As to the Indian members here, let me just quote Sikand again: "Few Indians would, however, know this, or, if they did, would admit it. After all, the Indian media never highlights anything positive about Pakistan, because for it only 'bad' news about the country appears to be considered 'newsworthy'."

Pleasantly Surprised, In Islamabad By Yoginder Sikand

 

[karan.1970]

There's no doubt that the infrastructure in Pakistan is more developed than india's. Let's not discuss that part.

well..pardon me if i take the research of World economic forum over your assertions..

 

[karan.1970]

I'd be curious as to how they arrived at the "Air" conclusions. Airports in Pakistan are far superior, in general.

Airlines like Air Blue are also providing pretty much every technological and convenience feature the better domestic airlines provide anywhere else in the world.

But anyway, I don't want to make this a point of discussion. I just know from many conversations with visitors to India that they rated Indian airports very poorly.

See Tech, the Quality of Air transport is not simply a factor of how snazzy the airports are. It also depends on the coverage, airport density, number of flights, maturity of private air transport industry and so on.

 

[SMC]

well..pardon me if i take the research of World economic forum over your assertions..

I didn't see anything regarding this, but yes if you want to accept it over those who have been on the ground in both countries, go right ahead, not my problem.

 

[SMC]

Another problem with quoting these organizations is that just like these organizations, one can quote any other famous organization or media outlet and say that since they are saying such and such, so it must be true. While ground reality is totally different from the accounts of those who have been there. Realize that these organizations are interest-driven, and they say what's in their interests. There's really no such thing as a neutral organization or group. It's just not in human nature.

The failed state listing had Pakistan at number 10 in 2005 or 2006, when Pakistan was growing at 7-8% per year, KSE was going bezerk, and there wasn't a huge problem with terrorism. Pakistanwas listed higher than some African nations (I believe even Somalia and Sierra Leone were lower). These organizations are hardly an indicator of ground reality. They are an indicatior of opinions or perception.

 

[alirulesall123]

Another problem with quoting these organizations is that just like these organizations, one can quote any other famous organization or media outlet and say that since they are saying such and such, so it must be true. While ground reality is totally different from the accounts of those who have been there. Realize that these organizations are interest-driven, and they say what's in their interests. There's really no such thing as a neutral organization or group. It's just not in human nature.

The failed state listing had Pakistan at number 10 in 2005 or 2006, when Pakistan was growing at 7-8% per year, KSE was going bezerk, and there wasn't a huge problem with terrorism. Pakistanwas listed higher than some African nations (I believe even Somalia and Sierra Leone were lower). These organizations are hardly an indicator of ground reality. They are an indicatior of opinions or perception.

Agreed. I mean seriously, how can Pakistan even be compared to african shitholes like Liberia and Sierra Leone, where there are cannibalistic militias that attack anyone that strays to far from the main road?

It's completely ludicrous, and further proves the point that the many Indians working within these organizations will stop at nothing with their information war, in their pursuit to demonize Pakistan.

 

[sparklingway]

Agreed. I mean seriously, how can Pakistan even be compared to african shitholes like Liberia and Sierra Leone, where there are cannibalistic militias that attack anyone that strays to far from the main road?

That's plain racist and xenophobic. How do you know you are better than the people in "african shitholes"? How are you better than "cannibalistic militias"?

The height of narrow minded, racist, biased, intolerant and disdainful views. I hope you realize that you degraded a large population of people who have suffered at the hands of colonial Europeans and humanity in general. This is not a debate about their cultural inclinations or the cannibalism (albeit rare and ceremonial mostly) that ran in tribes across Africa.

 

[alirulesall123]

That's plain racist and xenophobic. How do you know you are better than the people in "african shitholes"? How are you better than "cannibalistic militias"?

The height of narrow minded, racist, biased, intolerant and disdainful views. I hope you realize that you degraded a large population of people who have suffered at the hands of colonial Europeans and humanity in general. This is not a debate about their cultural inclinations or the cannibalism (albeit rare and ceremonial mostly) that ran in tribes across Africa.

How is it racist? I'm not saying that such conditions are only found in africa, or that africans are the only ones to do such things. For example, Cambodia and Myanmar are "asian shitholes". Pakistanis are asian as well, so does that mean i'm being racist to myself?

And I know, your point is correct about colonialism, but Jesus Christ, Pakistan and India were also colonized, do you see us going around and literally eating each other alive?

 

[SMC]

Look, I think it's wrong to call these countries so and so, but there's no doubt they shouldn't be lower than Pakistan in these rankings. I mean you're talking about countries that have no functioning government, where militias and armed thugs rule the country, where there's really no functioning economy and jobs, and you're saying these countries are in better position than Pakistan. For all the problems that Pakistan has, it cannot be compared to these countries. I believe I read on the website of the group that does those rankings and I noticed two interestings facts.

1. There were a few indians on their panels.

2. They base their rankings on what is said in media. That's right off their website. "The rankings used tens of thousands of media articles to establish their rankings". This is right off their report. In other words, they do not use ground reality as their input, but rather media articles. I don't know about you guys, but that's a very bad way of doing rankings. Because what you'll be showing in your rankings is perception of countries standings in terms of being a failed state, not the ground reality. That's basically what media is. They are very friendly towards some, hostile to some, and somewhere in the middle for the rest, but never neutral. Take a basic politics course and you'll learn that media is NOT neutral - the information it presents is filtered according to what they want you to know/hear, or what is popular.

 

[sparklingway]

How is it racist? I'm not saying that such conditions are only found in africa, or that africans are the only ones to do such things. For example, Cambodia and Myanmar are "asian shitholes". Pakistanis are asian as well, so does that mean i'm being racist to myself?

And I know, your point is correct about colonialism, but Jesus Christ, Pakistan and India were also colonized, do you see us going around and literally eating each other alive?

Point taken.

 

[alirulesall123]

Point taken.

No worries.

 

[sparklingway]

Look, I think it's wrong to call these countries so and so, but there's no doubt they shouldn't be lower than Pakistan in these rankings. I mean you're talking about countries that have no functioning government, where militias and armed thugs rule the country, where there's really no functioning economy and jobs, and you're saying these countries are in better position than Pakistan. For all the problems that Pakistan has, it cannot be compared to these countries. I believe I read on the website of the group that does those rankings and I noticed two interestings facts.

Is there really a way you can rank countries? Even in highly selective matters like say ranking based on adult literacy. There arise differences in the definition of adult literacy and some consider that literacy is no achievement, educational attainment should be a standard. Who defines that then?

What I can say conclusively is that all rankings and lists are unreflected of ground realities in some regards. Some lists/rankings are capable of depicting ground realities in a much more real fashion. Institutional biases and ideological inclinations cannot be ruled out. Neoliberal institutions will of course see regulated economies as bad even if they are performing well. The degree of bias and the math behind the list can be debated. The most trusted names rely on statistical, probabilistic and economic analysis to give them the results, these aren't the random imaginations of a single man.

What started as a commentary on our economic outlook and future turned into who was the better airports and roads debate. The outlook of our economy has been left to the wolves while the outlook of this topic doesn't seem very great either

 

[graphican]

I guess we have got democracy. So that means any decline in the economy can be tolerated. And that 7% growth for 5-7 years means nothing because it was done by the military.

This is what you call Cherry Picking. Whole country went to hell because of one wise guy sitting in the presidency, what about Kashmir Issue, What about black-water running in country, what about NROs, what about handeling over Pakistanis to Amerians and lifting up people from home and detaining them ever on the suspecisions, what about brining people like Shoukat Aziz who took more loan than Pakistan took in the past 30 years to fabricate credit driven economy and who will be paid back you or and my children, what about Baluchistan Insurgency that rose because of intellectual abililties of the same genius, what about NROs and letters looters like Zardari sit in Parliament and Presidency. God Dam this one one genius of yours who has fcuked Pakistan down to its bones and the people who have enough cheeks to support it. This fcuking government who you are condemning is yet another gift that the same super human who negotiated and bargained them in exchange of indemnity which he is enjoying in American and British supported asylum.