Pakistan's Declining Economy Since 2008

[sparklingway]

This is what you call Cherry Picking. Whole country went to hell because of one wise guy sitting in the presidency, what about Kashmir Issue, What about black-water running in country, what about NROs, what about handeling over Pakistanis to Amerians and lifting up people from home and detaining them ever on the suspecisions, what about brining people like Shoukat Aziz who took more loan than Pakistan took in the past 30 years to fabricate credit driven economy and who will be paid back you or and my children, what about Baluchistan Insurgency that rose because of intellectual abililties of the same genius, what about NROs and letters looters like Zardari sit in Parliament and Presidency. God Dam this one one genius of yours who has fcuked Pakistan down to its bones and the people who have enough cheeks to support it. This fcuking government who you are condemning is yet another gift that the same super human who negotiated and bargained them in exchange of indemnity which he is enjoying in American and British supported asylum.

There's a bunch of threads dedicated to the gentlemen concerned

 

[SMC]

This is what you call Cherry Picking. Whole country went to hell because of one wise guy sitting in the presidency, what about Kashmir Issue, What about black-water running in country, what about NROs, what about handeling over Pakistanis to Amerians and lifting up people from home and detaining them ever on the suspecisions, what about brining people like Shoukat Aziz who took more loan than Pakistan took in the past 30 years to fabricate credit driven economy and who will be paid back you or and my children, what about Baluchistan Insurgency that rose because of intellectual abililties of the same genius, what about NROs and letters looters like Zardari sit in Parliament and Presidency. God Dam this one one genius of yours who has fcuked Pakistan down to its bones and the people who have enough cheeks to support it. This fcuking government who you are condemning is yet another gift that the same super human who negotiated and bargained them in exchange of indemnity which he is enjoying in American and British supported asylum.

The government was chosen by the people, not by him. So that's not his problem. Other things can also be debated but I will not go into it as it will be offtopic.

 

[SMC]

Is there really a way you can rank countries? Even in highly selective matters like say ranking based on adult literacy. There arise differences in the definition of adult literacy and some consider that literacy is no achievement, educational attainment should be a standard. Who defines that then?

What I can say conclusively is that all rankings and lists are unreflected of ground realities in some regards. Some lists/rankings are capable of depicting ground realities in a much more real fashion. Institutional biases and ideological inclinations cannot be ruled out. Neoliberal institutions will of course see regulated economies as bad even if they are performing well. The degree of bias and the math behind the list can be debated. The most trusted names rely on statistical, probabilistic and economic analysis to give them the results, these aren't the random imaginations of a single man.

What started as a commentary on our economic outlook and future turned into who was the better airports and roads debate. The outlook of our economy has been left to the wolves while the outlook of this topic doesn't seem very great either

What I will say is that as far as these lists are concerned, you can look at them as an indicator of ground reality, i.e. the ground reality can possibly be such, but until you go there yourself or there are conclusive reports from people at the ground, do not take these lists as some sort of an empirical evidence of such and such statement, or empirical facts.

The best reports to look at are reports that use statistics that are bounded by the same standard across the board. So far instance, when looking at poverty rates, the best statistics to look at are statistics that use the same poverty standards in all countries. These India/Pakistan poverty rates we see, both have different poverty standards used so you're not getting the real picture of what's happening.

 

[karan.1970]

Another problem with quoting these organizations is that just like these organizations, one can quote any other famous organization or media outlet and say that since they are saying such and such, so it must be true. While ground reality is totally different from the accounts of those who have been there. Realize that these organizations are interest-driven, and they say what's in their interests. There's really no such thing as a neutral organization or group. It's just not in human nature.

The failed state listing had Pakistan at number 10 in 2005 or 2006, when Pakistan was growing at 7-8% per year, KSE was going bezerk, and there wasn't a huge problem with terrorism. Pakistanwas listed higher than some African nations (I believe even Somalia and Sierra Leone were lower). These organizations are hardly an indicator of ground reality. They are an indicatior of opinions or perception.

I tend to agree with you about the vested interests and so on. And this applies to all, including UN, IMF etc and members from both sides have quoted their figures too. You talk of 7% growth in Pakistan economy. this number is also qouted by some institution and hence that can be doubted as well. So there really is no holy cow. However there are some reputed institutions that are not so blatant in publishing incorrect data and I believe WEF is one of them. Also WEF consists of members from all these countries and employes on the ground researchers, so its not any less than opinions of people who have been there...

 

[SMC]

Yes the 7% figure can be a lie, and so can be india's 9% growth but those are smaller things because those figures are not so easy to forge. And more importantly, they come from the ground, not from a group or institutition. I do not know if WEF ever said India has better infrastructure - I haven't seen this report - but ground reality to me is the most reliable indicator and that seems to be suggesting that Pakistan has better infrastructure. But yes, if one wants to believe India has better infrastructure, go right ahead, I really don't think its a big deal.

 

[karan.1970]

Yes the 7% figure can be a lie, and so can be india's 9% growth but those are smaller things because those figures are not so easy to forge. And more importantly, they come from the ground, not from a group or institutition. I do not know if WEF ever said India has better infrastructure - I haven't seen this report - but ground reality to me is the most reliable indicator and that seems to be suggesting that Pakistan has better infrastructure. But yes, if one wants to believe India has better infrastructure, go right ahead, I really don't think its a big deal.

Here you go..

http://www.weforum.org/pdf/GCR09/GCR20092010fullreport.pdf

Also you need to understand the nature of WEF. Its not a multi national govt body like UN or WHO, but is a collection of business leaders from different countries of the world. Hence I would give their research a lot more credence. As a matter of fact if i remember right, they recently honoured 5 Pakistanis as a part of their Young Global Leaders 2010 list.

 

[TechLahore]

w if WEF ever said India has better infrastructure - I haven't seen this report - but ground reality to me is the most reliable indicator and that seems to be suggesting that Pakistan has better infrastructure. But yes, if one wants to believe India has better infrastructure, go right ahead, I really don't think its a big deal.

The WEF report doesn't say that India has better infrastructure. It breaks the infrastructure category into different areas and India ranks higher than Pakistan in some of them, such as train infrastructure. However, in terms of roads, Pakistan ranks higher.

The net-net is as you said, one can dispute every report published on development indicators; many of them end up contradicting each other. The most reliable way to gauge how "developed" a country's infrastructure is probably via first-hand accounts. Spend a few days there, travel by road, travel by plane, use the phone system, get a mobile etc. etc. Since I am in the technology industry and routinely host executives from the US and Europe who have visited India, I had previously shared their views with the members here... In the view of these Americans/Europeans who had visited both Pakistan and India, the infrastructure in Pakistan was decades ahead of India.

This seems to be a view that is mirrored in some public discussions of this nature also. Riaz sb pointed to a couple, such as Dalrymple et al.

Now, one can continue to argue this, but obviously beyond citing WEF , ITU and other reports, it is all a matter of perception. To everyone I've spoken to who has no stake in either India's reputation or Pakistan's, the consensus seems to be that Pakistan appears cleaner, more developed, more organized and generally offers superior living conditions. Dissenters are obviously entitled to their opinion and are welcome to it.

 

[ramu]

The WEF report doesn't say that India has better infrastructure. It breaks the infrastructure category into different areas and India ranks higher than Pakistan in some of them, such as train infrastructure. However, in terms of roads, Pakistan ranks higher.

The net-net is as you said, one can dispute every report published on development indicators; many of them end up contradicting each other. The most reliable way to gauge how "developed" a country's infrastructure is probably via first-hand accounts. Spend a few days there, travel by road, travel by plane, use the phone system, get a mobile etc. etc. Since I am in the technology industry and routinely host executives from the US and Europe who have visited India, I had previously shared their views with the members here... In the view of these Americans/Europeans who had visited both Pakistan and India, the infrastructure in Pakistan was decades ahead of India.

This seems to be a view that is mirrored in some public discussions of this nature also. Riaz sb pointed to a couple, such as Dalrymple et al.

Now, one can continue to argue this, but obviously beyond citing WEF , ITU and other reports, it is all a matter of perception. To everyone I've spoken to who has no stake in either India's reputation or Pakistan's, the consensus seems to be that Pakistan appears cleaner, more developed, more organized and generally offers superior living conditions. Dissenters are obviously entitled to their opinion and are welcome to it.

Please refresh your memory with a thread in this forum:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate.../43498-comparing-india-pakistan-2010-a-3.html

India is moving ahead on a day to day basis. So is Pakistan but my measure of success is GDP, growth, Fiscal deficit, foreign exchange reserves and per capita income. I will not go by word of mouth if I were you.

 

[RiazHaq]

Please refresh your memory with a thread in this forum:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate.../43498-comparing-india-pakistan-2010-a-3.html

India is moving ahead on a day to day basis. So is Pakistan but my measure of success is GDP, growth, Fiscal deficit, foreign exchange reserves and per capita income. I will not go by word of mouth if I were you.

Based on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, what matters most to people are basic necessities like food, shelter and clothing. Then come security, literacy and education. A country that does better on ensuring these is better than the one that doesn't.

In terms of food, shelter and clothing, the status of an average Indian is not only worse than an average Pakistani's, the abject deprivation in India is comparable to the nations in sub-Saharan Africa. However, Pakistanis do need to worry about their woefully inadequate state of security, education and literacy. They must find a way to develop the skills, grow the economy and create opportunities for their growing young population. As Pakistan's former finance minister Salman Shah recently told the wall Street Journal, "Pakistan has to be part of globalization or you end up with Talibanization. Until we put these (Pakistan's) young people into industrialization and services, and off-farm work, they will drift into this negative extremism; there is nothing worse than not having a job." Unless Pakistanis heed Shah's advice, there is real danger that Pakistan will slip into total chaos and violence, endangering the entire nation in the foreseeable future.

Haq's Musings: Food, Clothing and Shelter in India and Pakistan

 

[Iggy]

I love the way this thread is going.. the thread starter start with decline of Pakistan Economy and suddenly put it a rest and start his anti India bashing and now trying his hard to tell that how Pakistan is better than India..

 

[karan.1970]

I love the way this thread is going.. the thread starter start with decline of Pakistan Economy and suddenly put it a rest and start his anti India bashing and now trying his hard to tell that how Pakistan is better than India..

Thats so right. What you see on this forum is that Pakistanis are pretty fine with declining Pakistani Economy, as long as India is declining faster. And in the true spirit of mindless hate, instead of discussing how the declining trend of Pakistani economy be reversed, most are debating to prove India is worse off. In that quest, suddenly hearsay opinions of 10-20 visiting foreigners become more objective and credible than organizations like IMD and World Economic Forum. Best of luck guys...Knock your self out...

 

[NWO]

Pakistan has any auto industry? I searched for made in pakistan car. I did not find any. Pakistan does not have any car made in pakistan car.

Pakistan does have a auto industry. However, most cars are made from companies outside of Pakistan, and so its auto industry hasn't been mentioned much on the internet.

By the way, why do you guys take the IMF and World Bank so seriously? They sponsor African dictators, among others.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Pakistan has any auto industry? I searched for made in pakistan car. I did not find any. Pakistan does not have any car made in pakistan car.

I heard that pakistan has better roads and highway. why did not translate into auto industry?

Nice try: Pakistan assemble all the cars for these roads

Indus motors Pakistan
INDUS MOTOR COMPANY LTD - Home

Honda pakistan
Honda | Pakistan

Ghandhara Nissan Limited

http://www.dewan-motors.com/hyundai/index.php

 

[RiazHaq]

In addition to multi-billion dollar auto manufacturing business, Pakistan's auto parts industry is a billion US dollars a year industry. Sixty percent of its output goes to the motor cycle industry, 22% is for cars, and the rest is consumed by trucks, buses & tractors.

Pakistan has the distinction having the largest number of vehicles using cng and world's largest number of cng stations in the world. The cng kits are made in Pakistan for both domestic use and export.

Haq's Musings: Auto Industry Prospects in India and Pakistan


Following is a list of Top 10 countires of the world in terms of number of CNG vehicles on their roads. The number in parenthesis show number of CNG refuelling stations in those countries.

1. Pakistan: 2,191,000 (2941)
2. Argentina: 1,745,677 (1801)
3. Brazil: 1,588,331 (1688)
4. Iran: 1,000,000 (500)
5. India: 650,000 (463)
6. Italy: 580,000 (700)
7. China: 400,000 (1000)
8. Columbia: 280,340 (401)
9. Bangladesh: 150,253 (337)
10. Thailand: 127,735 (303)

http://pakistaniat.com/2009/07/14/pakistan-cng/

 

[Iggy]

In addition to multi-billion dollar auto manufacturing business, Pakistan's auto parts industry is a billion US dollars a year industry. Sixty percent of its output goes to the motor cycle industry, 22% is for cars, and the rest is consumed by trucks, buses & tractors.

Pakistan has the distinction having the largest number of vehicles using cng and world's largest number of cng stations in the world. The cng kits are made in Pakistan for both domestic use and export.

Haq's Musings: Auto Industry Prospects in India and Pakistan


Following is a list of Top 10 countires of the world in terms of number of CNG vehicles on their roads. The number in parenthesis show number of CNG refuelling stations in those countries.

1. Pakistan: 2,191,000 (2941)
2. Argentina: 1,745,677 (1801)
3. Brazil: 1,588,331 (1688)
4. Iran: 1,000,000 (500)
5. India: 650,000 (463)
6. Italy: 580,000 (700)
7. China: 400,000 (1000)
8. Columbia: 280,340 (401)
9. Bangladesh: 150,253 (337)
10. Thailand: 127,735 (303)

Pakistan has Highest Number of CNG Vehicles in the World : ALL THINGS PAKISTAN

Thats great you find another thing Pakistan is ahead of India..BTW what about vehicles?? India or Pakistan is ahead??