Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts

[Yasser76]

In all honesty I am yet to see deployment of the zdk03

Google Maps often shows them parked at various positions at Masroor so can only assume they are active there?

 

[Akh1112]

We usually see zdk-03 flying in Karachi

Makes sense, perhaps the PAF uses them to monitor the sea as they don’t have mpa assets, you can use them for that so it wouldn’t be too far fetched to assume I guess

Google Maps often shows them parked at various positions at Masroor so can only assume they are active there?

Perhaps, though they could always just be making hangar trips etc. I wonder what the rationale behind the zdk03 was. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) ?

 

[Blacklight]

More this his credibility I am interested in the claim he is making and the proof he is giving. Some expert needs to clear things up.

@Tipu7 @Blacklight @Windjammer

@Tps43 is our resident expert. I would rather not comment.

 

[SQ8]

We usually see zdk-03 flying in Karachi

They are generally better at tackling sea surveillance than erieyes which are better over the terrain and EW environment along the border than ZDKs.

Makes sense, perhaps the PAF uses them to monitor the sea as they don’t have mpa assets, you can use them for that so it wouldn’t be too far fetched to assume I guess


Perhaps, though they could always just be making hangar trips etc. I wonder what the rationale behind the zdk03 was. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) ?

The SEA surveillance mode is reportedly very good and the PN gets a good cover. Additionally, the Y-9 platform is not very liked among pilots and maintenance apparently versus the Saab 2000.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

They are generally better at tackling sea surveillance than erieyes which are better over the terrain and EW environment along the border than ZDKs.

The SEA surveillance mode is reportedly very good and the PN gets a good cover. Additionally, the Y-9 platform is not very liked among pilots and maintenance apparently versus the Saab 2000.

But with the PN stipulating an AEW-type capability in the Sea Sultan, I wonder if the PN now wants to take more ownership of this area. Remember, the PN had asked for the Hawkeye 2000 on the P-3 (and the US even approved it in the mid-2000s).

IMO the Erieye-ER on the Lineage 1000E or E190-E2 could be really interesting. The Erieye-ER is a GaN-type radar with a 70%+ range improvement over the preceding Erieye. Add a Seaspray SAR/GMTI and you have a really good ISR combination.

Makes sense, perhaps the PAF uses them to monitor the sea as they don’t have mpa assets, you can use them for that so it wouldn’t be too far fetched to assume I guess


Perhaps, though they could always just be making hangar trips etc. I wonder what the rationale behind the zdk03 was. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) ?

In the aftermath of the Earthquake, the PAF had to scale the Erieye program back from 6 aircraft to 4. So a lower-cost way of making up the AEW&C gap (resulting from fewer Erieyes) was getting the ZDK03. The PAF got 4 for less than $300 m, which for the time was a good deal.

But the PAF was able to build to its original Erieye goal of 6 aircraft, and it sounds like the PN wants to take up AEW capability via the Sea Sultan. So, I don't know, how long are the ZDK03s going to stay?

 

[SQ8]

But with the PN stipulating an AEW-type capability in the Sea Sultan, I wonder if the PN now wants to take more ownership of this area. Remember, the PN had asked for the Hawkeye 2000 on the P-3 (and the US even approved it in the mid-2000s).

IMO the Erieye-ER on the Lineage 1000E or E190-E2 could be really interesting. The Erieye-ER is a GaN-type radar with a 70%+ range improvement over the preceding Erieye. Add a Seaspray SAR/GMTI and you have a really good ISR combination.

In the aftermath of the Earthquake, the PAF had to scale the Erieye program back from 6 aircraft to 4. So a lower-cost way of making up the AEW&C gap (resulting from fewer Erieyes) was getting the ZDK03. The PAF got 4 for less than $300 m, which for the time was a good deal.

But the PAF was able to build to its original Erieye goal of 6 aircraft, and it sounds like the PN wants to take up AEW capability via the Sea Sultan. So, I don't know, how long are the ZDK03s going to stay?

That may be a great idea and having the erieye radar on this platform may even make a foundation for the PAF transitioning from the Saab a few years into the future as that platform gets obsolete.

 

[HRK]

IMO the Erieye-ER on the Lineage 1000E or E190-E2 could be really interesting.

I too wanted something like this and as a hobby when I was playing scenarios and was thinking about operational employment of the system found that 360 degree coverage should be preferred rather an AEW&C with fixed two face Antenna as targets & threats in open sea could be anywhere in any direction, Saab-2000 flying North-South-North could cover India in our east

But we could not fly SAAB-2000 AEW&C over sea in North-South or East-west pattern because of the gap exist due to design flaw in 2 side facing Erieye AESA antenna. This thing creat a gap in search and Tacking

Therefore we either need to install a rotating disk or three face antenna

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

That may be a great idea and having the erieye radar on this platform may even make a foundation for the PAF transitioning from the Saab a few years into the future as that platform gets obsolete.

I'd also keep an eye on how we deal with the IL-78s in 5-7 years.

If we can find someone to help with configuring the A330 for the AAR role with UPAZ, we'd gain a tremendous capability boost via the fuel-load and fuel-efficiency of that platform.

 

[Sifar zero]

I don’t really think it would be worth it, remember, the benefit of the erieye is that it’s piss cheap, the latest deal was for $150m for three systems (one delivered so far). 150m is absurdly cheap, look at pricing for other similar awacs systems on the market and you’ll see how amazing of a proposition the erieye is.

aside from this, as the paf evolves, there’s a Good chance they will evaluate the erieye er or the navy could ask for a suite based off of the erieye er for their lineage1000e as they seemingly haven’t given up hope on n awacs solution.
Just to clarify, the paf has 2 more erieye on order, current inventory of 7.

Bro, you said they were cheap?
I mean how Erieye is a western system, are labour costs in Sweden high or very low?

 

[Ali_Baba]

But the PAF was able to build to its original Erieye goal of 6 aircraft, and it sounds like the PN wants to take up AEW capability via the Sea Sultan. So, I don't know, how long are the ZDK03s going to stay?

The ZDK-03's will be going no where for quite some time i reckon. PAF/PN may adopt the Erieye-ER(if Saab decides to allow for the sale of that variant to Pakistan which is an unknown right now) on a Lineage 1000E and that makes alot of sense.However, we are talking about the PAF which is still operating 50 year old relics in the name of Mirages - so there is no way they are going to decomisson the ZDK-03's any time soon, that I am very sure on until all of the airframe life is exhausted and the EW/Radar has run out of life aswell.

We have seen time and time again, the lack of joined up strategic thinking around military procurements from Pakistan between the services. Pakistan's military procurements seem to have a tribal mentality around them at times, the services dont seem to talk to each other or consult each other much. A standardisation around the Lineage 1000E for a whole suite of systems makes alot of sense for sure.

Pakistan can decide to develop an AWACs platform using the Lineage 1000E by either hosting Chinese radars on this platform, or developing something with Turkey, or even work with Saab to develop an AWACs variant of the Erieye-ER (three face antenna variant ) hosted on a Lineage 1000E (if the Lineage 1000E is big enough to host one? )

Chinese militarty aviation platforms are a problem interms of maintenance for sure - but, they are making massive strides in electronics and avionics, so i would not dismiss the value of a Chinese based AESA AWACs on a Lineage 1000E.

 

[Blacklight]

I don't know, how long are the ZDK03s going to stay?

⬇

At least one zdk is being upgraded in China. Two side aesa in rotodome. Has Klc-7 B&R Eye radar.

 

[iLION12345_1]

⬇

Was that upgrade ever completed? That was over a year ago.

 

[Blacklight]

Was that upgrade ever completed? That was over a year ago.

 

[Tipu7]

On paper ZDK-03s may appear better platform than Erieyes, but in actuality Erieyes are more advance and reliable than ZDK-03s. Swift Retort has also stamped the Erieyes operational capabilities. There are certain limitations of ZDK-03 regarding communication (with non Chinese assets?) and information gathering (its more prone to EW, share less precise data?). Therefore, It's safe to assume that PAF will standardize its entire AEWCS fleet with Erieyes for covering all three primary sectors (North, Center, South).

If that happens in future, (theoretically speaking), ZDK-03s may be pushed to Navy (as part of Naval Aviation). Meaning, an improved ZDK-03 fleet could be employed specifically for Maritime operations. As Navy is increasing in size, it's also improving its physical presence farther South of its AORs. If there will be more warships and subs, then there will also be bigger and better naval aviation. Hence, ZDK-03s can find their role for enhanced coverage of Pakistan Maritime Domain.
They will be different from Sea Sultans as (1) they will primarily cover the aerial operations, (2) will serve as communication nodes for establishing network centricity, (3) will increase the envelop of Pakistan airborne area denial prowess, (4) and act as Airborne command & control systems for coverage of coastal, aerial, sea surface and submerged assets.

*Year ago, there was a proposal for customizing a pair of ZDK-03s with refuelling tanks. Meaning, ZDK-03s will be able to act as supplementary aerial refuelrs. It will be interesting to see in what capacity that proposal will materialize? (provided it has not been rejected already)

 

[Khan vilatey]

On paper ZDK-03s may appear better platform than Erieyes, but in actuality Erieyes are more advance and reliable than ZDK-03s. Swift Retort has also stamped the Erieyes operational capabilities. There are certain limitations of ZDK-03 regarding communication (with non Chinese assets?) and information gathering (its more prone to EW, share less precise data?). Therefore, It's safe to assume that PAF will standardize its entire AEWCS fleet with Erieyes for covering all three primary sectors (North, Center, South).

If that happens in future, (theoretically speaking), ZDK-03s may be pushed to Navy (as part of Naval Aviation). Meaning, an improved ZDK-03 fleet could be employed specifically for Maritime operations. As Navy is increasing in size, it's also improving its physical presence farther South of its AORs. If there will be more warships and subs, then there will also be bigger and better naval aviation. Hence, ZDK-03s can find their role for enhanced coverage of Pakistan Maritime Domain.
They will be different from Sea Sultans as (1) they will primarily cover the aerial operations, (2) will serve as communication nodes for establishing network centricity, (3) will increase the envelop of Pakistan airborne area denial prowess, (4) and act as Airborne command & control systems for coverage of coastal, aerial, sea surface and submerged assets.

*Year ago, there was a proposal for customizing a pair of ZDK-03s with refuelling tanks. Meaning, ZDK-03s will be able to act as supplementary aerial refuelrs. It will be interesting to see in what capacity that proposal will materialize? (provided it has not been rejected already)

Aoa, I respectfully disagree with your comments

1) the entire PAF hi end radar capability from ground 3d AESA radars , to naval 3d aesa radars on the new and old frigates, to army balloon, Ly80 anti aircraft Battrey & anti artillery radars are Chinese, why would we not buy more such platforms that integrate with all our arms !!!

2)all hi-end AESA radars on the PAF fleet are Chinese e.g jf-17 block 2 , block 3 with AeSA radars and soon to be inducted J-10C. If these are so terrible why are we not equipping them with Swedish radars? They may have maintenance issues but we are maintaining them like all of our equipment ! So this conjecture of not buying more is less about the technology and capability then some feelings people have about inferior Chinese EW and surveillance capability.

finally I believe that the PAF is waiting for the Chinese to mount larger surveillance goodies on Y-20 platform. I truly believe that the PAF will standardize on this platform over the next few years as there transport, refulers and AWaCS fleet.

k