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Pakistan's acquisition of the U-214

okay let me tell you IN is buying 12 Scorpene in all in 2 batch of 6. the other new conventional sub is russian LADA class and that too in 2 batch of 6.
you are right the first 3 scorpene is without MESMA AIP kit which will be installed later at the end of decade. our 2 A-90B are also waiting for the kits which will arrive in 2010. i am not sure why you are assuming that Scorpene will have a nuclear power plant.
There are only 6 Scorpene ordered so far, more could be optional. The second competition is for 6 - 8 AIP subs with Russian Amur/Lada class, or Italo - Russian S1000 sub as frontrunners, also the production of 5 SSBN are cleared.
Because they seems to offer such a capability, which would be a big improvement for IN, if they could have SSBNs and SSNs soon.
 
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i guess German U-214 is the best conventional sub after reading the comments of our members

Just a quick question: Which is the best American submarine there?
 
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i guess German U-214 is the best conventional sub after reading the comments of our members

Just a quick question: Which is the best American submarine there?

Americans don't have conventional submarines, so nothing in that category to compete with U-214.

In nuclear, Seawolf class submarines were the most lethal ones, but only 3 were made, seawolf class has been succeeded by the Virginia Class submarines, which we can say are the most advanced & lethal ones for the USN.
 
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With great respect to all senior members,
Just want to know that, this deal is all corner off or still in way ?
plz reply.
 
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Choosing French Submarine over German? : Rational decision or risking Pakistani defence ?
Published by editor Pakistan Aug 3, 2009

FarzanaBy Farzana Shah

A German team is due in few days probably on August 5th according to sources to look into possibility of signing the accord for provision of U-214 submarines to Pakistan Navy.

However reports appearing in the media suggest that the deal may hit snags due to change of mind in the current Pakistani government over purchase of German submarines.

In 2008 Pakistan Navy under chief of naval staff Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir made efforts for including German 214 Class submarines in its fleet and owing to Navy’s persistent efforts, the government had approved plans for acquisition of these submarines to be built at Karachi Shipyard under transfer of technology programme.

The details were later worked out between the two countries when a Pakistan Navy delegation visited Germany in April.

However recently quoting Pakistani government sources, the Financial Times Deutschland says President Asif Zardari may overrule his military’s preference for the German subs to take up a “better offer” from France.

But what better submarines France can offer to Pakistan? That is a question to ponder because France has no better submarines to offer Pakistan at the moment, whereas French are indeed not ready to offer us nuclear submarine.

What France has in store?

There are three options 1. Scorpion, 2. Marlin and 3. Barracuda submarines. But again the scorpions are not superior to U 214, neither these will be having any benefit for Pakistan because French company DCN is already going to provide Scorpion to Indian Navy ahead of Pakistan.

U-214 is way better than French design given to India. Marlin is just on drawing board and will take forever to go to prototype stage and then test and evaluation and finally induction into Pakistan Navy meanwhile India will have all its Scorpion in sea. DCN (Direction des Constructions Navales), France will not be able to fulfill Pakistani order ahead of Indians.

Now the only option for Pakistan will be to ask for Barracuda submarine, but it is unlikely that France will sell us nuclear submarine. Barracuda is a nuclear powered submarine and France does not currently allow the sale of nuclear-propelled submarines.

Despite having French Agosta B submarines, the Pakistani Navy opted for purchasing German Torpedoes for fitting to Agosta B due to the superior German technology.

Pakistan Navy needs German submarines because the German U-214 subs are far better than the French Scorpion.

Following is the comparison between French subs and German U 214.

Specifications of U-214

Crew

27 (including five officers)
Weapon Systems:

Torpedoes

Six 533mm tubes, 24 STN Atlas Elektronik DM2A4 torpedoes

Combat Data Syetem

Basic Command and Weapons Control System (BCWCS)

Countermeasures:

ESM

EADS

FL1800U

Decoys

TAU 2000 torpedo countermeasures system

Radar

Kelvin hughes type 1007 I-band navigation radar

Sonar

STN Atlas Elektronik DBQS-40 sonar suite and STN Atlas Elektronik MOA 3070 mine detection sonar

Periscopes

Zeiss Optronic SERO 14 search and SERO 15 attack

Propulsion

Diesel-electric, MTU 16V-396 diesel engine, 3.12MW, HDW / Siemens AIP (Air-Independent Propulsion) system, 300kW
U214 Dimensions:

Length

64m

Height

13m

Surface Displacement

1,700m³

Presure Hull Diameter

6.3m

Buoyancy Reserve 10%
U214 Performance:

Submerged Patrol Speed of Advance

6kt

Range

12,000nm

Mission Endurance

12 weeks

Constantly Submerged

Three weeks without snorkelling

Mission Sprint Speed

15kt to 20kt

Maximum Dive Depth

400m+

Scorpion (Scorpène) Subs (French One) Specifications

Key Data:

Crew

32
Dimensions:

Overall Length

63.5m

Draught

5.4m

Submerged Displacement

1,590t

Surface Displacement

1,450t

Pressure Hull Weldable and High-Tensile Steel

80HLES, more than 700Mpa
Performance:

Maximum Operating Depth

350m

Submerged Speed

Over 20 kt

Range (at 8kt)

6,400nm

Endurance

50 days
Weapon Systems:

Torpedoes / Missiles

Six 21in torpedo tubes for 18 torpedoes / missiles

Comparison
Specs Scorpion U-214 Marlin
Crew 32 27
Maximum Operating Depth


350 meters More than 400 meters
Range 6400 nm 12000 nm
Endurance 50 Days 84 Days


The comparison clearly indicates the superiority of German U-214 submarine.

If the current government goes for inferior quality French submarines then it will indeed give weight to suspicion of many Pakistanis who see bribes as main factor behind any irrational decisions viz viz defence deals.

Already the Pakistani senators have demanded in an incamera briefing from Pakistani Naval chief in the Senate.

Whereas some eyebrows have also been raised over the fact that foreign secretary Salman Bashir in the current government of Zardari is the brother of Naval Chief, Noman Bashir and there are also some reports that PIA chairman is going to be named Pakistani envoy to France. Some political pundits see such an appointment an attempt to muster a deal for French submarines.
On the other hand submarine acquisition project (SMAP) a group composed of Naval officers who have recommended U-214 submarines over other options after extensive study has been disbanded and the officers have been posted out at different stations.

Though earlier the Germans have delayed the deal due to political situation of Pakistan but can kickoff cutting of hull for first submarine immediately after signing the deal.

In such a situation going for something which does not fulfill the requirement of Pakistan Navy would be tantamount to putting the national defence at risk.

There is no reason not to go for German submarines specially when Berlin even granted federal export credit guarantees worth nearly $1.4 billion for the purchase of the same.

:hitwall::hitwall:Sir are we again wasting our money on french subs. Is their any one who kill these bas.....
GOD HELP PAKISTAN>:pakistan::pakistan::pakistan::pakistan:
 
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let me tell you... agosta-90 was another frenchi trick! the government was PPP.. PN got a inferior sub (class) from the market. IMO PN should have acquired type-209/1400 back in 1990s and eventually upgrade them with AIP.. agosta-90 frame design is about 40 years old. and btw scorpene is way superior then A-90b.

The Agosta 90B class submarines are French diesel attack submarines (SSKs) used by Spain, Pakistan, and formerly by France. The French Navy grouped this model of non-nuclear submarine in their most capable class as an océanique, meaning "ocean-going." An Agosta 90B has a crew of 36 plus 5 Officers.
French Navy
built by Arsenal de Cherbourg

Agosta (S 620) - completed 1977 - decommissioned 1997
Bévéziers (S 621) - completed 1977 - decommissioned 1998
La Praya (S 622) - completed 1978 - decommissioned 2000
Ouessant (S 623) - completed 1978 - decommissioned 2001

[edit] Spanish Navy
built by Cartagena dockyard

Galerna (S 71) - completed 1983 - in service
Siroco (S 72) - completed 1983 - in service
Mistral (S 73) - completed 1985 - in service
Tramontana (S 74) - completed 1985 - in service
:coffee:
Agosta 90B class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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no news or updates about the U214,
i guess there is big money talks are going on the division of commision is being discussed!! iwonder when that in-camera briefing be given about the whole deal!!

regards!
 
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no news or updates about the U214,
i guess there is big money talks are going on the division of commision is being discussed!! iwonder when that in-camera briefing be given about the whole deal!!

regards!

hold on... this is not a team selection for champion trophy... wont find full coverage of every event... :lol: will take time and patients.. for now on.. lets dedicate this ramazan for Type-214!! :lol:
 
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man dont wana say much, if they wanna delay it a bit, its ok if its for U-214, but it would be more then worst if the current govt( i mean his excellence the co-chairman) forces the pak navy to go for french subs. i wonder how many more kick backs he wants to fill his balley.:angry:
 
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hold on... this is not a team selection for champion trophy... wont find full coverage of every event... :lol: will take time and patients.. for now on.. lets dedicate this ramazan for Type-214!! :lol:
well this time around the selection of team was pretty suspicious :lol:
however i was not talking about a documentary about the acquisition of U214 but the statement made by a member of parliament to bring into notice the rumors about cancellation of U214 in favor French subs, he asked about a briefing from CONS about the issue. i admit it have not been too long ago but still no word from naval headquarters about the issue.
i guess we will have to wait until German elections in September and if we didn't hear anything about the gr= German boats even after that time, then for me the rumors will become more of a news, ie we may go for french!
i hope PN sticks with german option and we can hear good news by EID time!!

regards!
 
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well this time around the selection of team was pretty suspicious :lol:
however i was not talking about a documentary about the acquisition of U214 but the statement made by a member of parliament to bring into notice the rumors about cancellation of U214 in favor French subs, he asked about a briefing from CONS about the issue. i admit it have not been too long ago but still no word from naval headquarters about the issue.
i guess we will have to wait until German elections in September and if we didn't hear anything about the gr= German boats even after that time, then for me the rumors will become more of a news, ie we may go for french!
i hope PN sticks with german option and we can hear good news by EID time!!

regards!

wait for the outcome of elections will raise more risk as the incoming government may or may not ratify it so its high time if sooner deal is finalized the better
 
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wait for the outcome of elections will raise more risk as the incoming government may or may not ratify it so its high time if sooner deal is finalized the better

it is not us who are to decide whether we should wait for elections or not.. the delay for this issue(elections) was from there side!!

regards!
 
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