Pakistanis must learn the limits of military led counter-terrorism

[Verve]

Those who give Malaysia as an example should ask themselves whether Malaysia declares itself as an Islamic State in the Constitution with enforcement of a State religion being a legal requirement.

A lot of Malaysia's laws are based on Islam and Sharia is strictly imposed on the muslim majority, without declaring it as an Islamic State.

Iran is another example, it is an Islamic Republic with an overwhelming muslim majority, just as Pakistan. It is also run by an Islamic Council, and it turned from a liberal to an Islamic State and it's social fabric is strong.

This state v religion nonsense is just that - nonsense of the liberals.

 

[VCheng]

What would those tools be?

A representative government, a working system of governance and justice, and a non-contrived national identity. Each one of these requisites of a modern state have been undermined over decades to the point of near collapse.

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Constitution of Malaysia, Article 11: Freedom of Religion

(1) Every person has the right to profess and practice his religion and, subject to Clause (4), to propagate it.

(2) No person shall be compelled to pay any tax the proceeds of which are specially allocated in whole or in part for the purposes of a religion other than his own.

(3) Every religious group has the right -
(a) to manage its own religious affairs;
(b) to establish and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes; and
(c) to acquire and own property and hold and administer it in accordance with law.

(4) State law and in respect of the Federal Territories of Kuala Lumpur and Lubuan, federal law may control or restrict the propagation of any religious doctrine or belief among persons professing the religion of Islam.

(5) This Article does not authorize any act contrary to any general law relating to public order, public health or morality.

 

[Verve]

Key here. There's no complete freedom of expression when it comes to Islam!! This is to mute fascists of both types.

(4) State law and in respect of the Federal Territories of Kuala Lumpur and Lubuan, federal law may control or restrict the propagation of any religious doctrine or belief among persons professing the religion of Islam.


Pull Malaysia's Sharia Law as well and post it here.

 

[VCheng]

But then again, Islam is not shoved down the throat of followers of other religions using State machinery. Key difference that treats all citizens equally.

When did Malaysia's Parliament pass the Hudood Ordnance imposing Sharia Law?

 

[Verve]

There's no shoving of anything anywhere. Minorities eat halal chicken, lamb, beef etc so if they have to put up with that, so be it.

Is alcohol openly sold in Iran or any muslim country with a 90%+ Muslim population?

As I said before, your new school of liberal Islam won't make a dent so scream and cry and pity all you want, it won't make any difference to Pakistan.

What you think Pakistan should be will not be. Keep dreaming.

 

[VCheng]

AAAAAAnd we are back to personal attacks because logical responses are not possible after losing the argument.

Malaysia's Constitution codifies FREEDOM of ALL religions:

http://www.thepigsite.com/reports/?id=3523

Malaysia Pork Supply and Demand

Malaysia is largely self-sufficient in pork, with production accounting for about 97 percent of domestic consumption. Production is stagnant, with little growth expected. Imports are tightly controlled. Opportunities exist for U.S. exporters, but the quantity would not be significant.


Production:
Malaysia’s pork production is forecast to remain relatively stable at about 235,000 tons in 2014. Similarly, swine population numbers have been constant at around 1.8 million head, and are not expected to increase. Factors hindering higher output include environmental concerns, urbanization, and cultural factors. Many smaller-scale farms were once located near high-population areas, but these have been forced to relocate due to problems associated with effluent disposal and odor. In addition, as a majority Muslim country where 60 percent of the population doesn’t consume pork nor wants to be near pork farms, opposition to expansion of the pork sector is fierce in some localities. In fact, the government of Malaysia (GOM) has an official policy of creating “pig farming areas,” which involves encouraging producers to relocate to specific zones. Establishment of these areas has been controversial and largely unsuccessful for a variety of reasons, including resistance to relocation among producers. The result is that many small-scale producers are abandoning the business.

About 80 percent of production occurs in peninsular Malaysia (mainly the States of Penang, Perak, Selangor, Malacca, Johor), with Sarawak in Eastern Malaysia also an important center of production. The average farm size is about 2,500 head, with about 150 sows. However, on peninsular Malaysia, several large farms exist with sow herds ranging from 3,000 to 4,500. The decline in small-scale producers, caused by the factors mentioned above, has created opportunities for expansion among the larger established farms that are in locations far removed from population centers. In fact, some of these larger farms are investing in improved and more modern production facilities, with better waste management systems. This new investment among these larger producers will not, however, lead to resurgence in production, as it is insufficient to replace the marked decline in small-scale production.

The sector consumes about 1.5 million tons of compound feed annually; the feed ingredients (primarily soybean meal and corn) are almost all imported. In addition, the sector relies almost exclusively on external supplies for herd improvement, importing both live boars/gilts and genetic material. Similarly, industry managers look to other countries for technical expertise and support, and often complain that GOM does little to assist in production.

Consumption:
While Malaysia’s population in about 29.6 million, only about 40 percent consume pork. Thus, the number of potential pork consumers in Malaysia is about double that of Singapore, but with significantly less purchasing power than their southern neighbors. Malaysia’s pork consumption is forecast to remain around 240,000 tons. This implies a per capita consumption for the entire population of around 8.1 kgs annually, but the effective per capita consumption among the actual pork consumers is about 20 kgs. per annum. Given demographic trends, and the outright opposition to pork in Malaysia, consumption is forecast to decline beyond 2014. Poultry is the favored meat and most important protein source, with consumption about five times that of pork. Malaysia is essentially self-sufficient in poultry meat production. Total beef (almost all imported) consumption is slightly above that of pork.


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And this is from Iran:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...lamic-state-s-secret-party-scene-9217419.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/16/iran-s-drinking-problem.html

Iran has one of the most serious alcohol problems in the world. Although it ranks number 166 in alcohol consumption per capita, if you look at the World Health Organization estimates for people who drink 35 liters or more alcohol over the course of a year, the country comes in at 19th in the world. In other words, the number of alcoholics per capita puts Iran ahead of Russia (ranked 30), Germany (83), Britain (95), the United States (104) and Saudi Arabia (184).

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To get back on topic, Pakistan's salvation lies only in separating matters of religion from matters of State. Undoubtedly.

 

[Verve]

That's your 'undoubtedly', so be it. You are a minority.

 

[VCheng]

Yes, speaking the truth is not a popularity contest. My views are definitely a minority. Pakistan's mad dash to self-obliteration is popular, hence unstoppable.

 

[Nilgiri]

A representative government, a working system of governance and justice, and a non-contrived national identity. Each one of these requisites of a modern state have been undermined over decades to the point of near collapse.

====================

Constitution of Malaysia, Article 11: Freedom of Religion

(1) Every person has the right to profess and practice his religion and, subject to Clause (4), to propagate it.

(2) No person shall be compelled to pay any tax the proceeds of which are specially allocated in whole or in part for the purposes of a religion other than his own.

(3) Every religious group has the right -
(a) to manage its own religious affairs;
(b) to establish and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes; and
(c) to acquire and own property and hold and administer it in accordance with law.

(4) State law and in respect of the Federal Territories of Kuala Lumpur and Lubuan, federal law may control or restrict the propagation of any religious doctrine or belief among persons professing the religion of Islam.

(5) This Article does not authorize any act contrary to any general law relating to public order, public health or morality.

Even Malaysia has problems though (when it comes to conversion from Islam to another religion):

 

[Verve]

Yes, speaking the truth is not a popularity contest. My views are definitely a minority. Pakistan's mad dash to self-obliteration is popular, hence unstoppable.

Unfortunately for you, You are neither establishment nor a public office holder, and you wouldn't even win a minority seat (Liberal Party) if you tried. So your opinion really is worth nothing as far as Pakistan is concerned, and nothing you can do about it other than come on the net to let off steam.

All you can do is be critical and that's fine. Pakistan is moving forward and the dogs barking besides and behind this movement forward are in reality nothing but irrelevant.

Even Malaysia has problems though (when it comes to conversion from Islam to another religion):

Thanks for that video. It confirms that the state religion of Malaysia is infact Islam and that's legislated as well, unlike one here who said that it wasn't! Perhaps that one should also know that Malaysia's constitution was written by Pakistani judges!!!

I lived there for many years and that system has worked well for Malaysians overall. No system is perfect but that has held the peace between the fragile 60% Muslim majority and 40% non-Muslim minorities. In Pakistan, we don't have such a large minority to contend with so should be easier.

 

[VCheng]

Even Malaysia has problems though (when it comes to conversion from Islam to another religion):

Just like Turkey, Malaysia is veering right, and will start stressing its seams as radicalism takes hold. Indonesia is in the same predicament. We have seen this happen many times before, when muddying the waters of State with a proscribed religion ends up in disaster. I have no problems with a nation choosing a path whatever it wishes to, with its derivative consequences for better or worse. I just tell it like it is, not as some way wish to portray it.

Fortunately for me, I made the correct decision to leave Pakistan when I did and hence I am largely immune to changes within it, AlHamdoLillah. I have said many times that if a majority of Pakistanis want Sharia, they should have it in full force, as soon as they can agree upon what it actually means.

 

[Naheed Janjua]

hmm author has a valid point but it will just remove the cover there is much more to terrorism than just religion. Let me tell you something this thread below and the quoted blast happened in Bakhar the bomb was not religiously motivated the bomber was bought from a Madrasa that trained Suicide bomber to kill certain people present at the place at that time...? The suicide bomber was bought for 6 lakh rupees or something like that. So what will you say now.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/acts-of-terrorism-in-pakistan.7284/page-21#post-259056

I also agree with you. see this article which is currently viral - reported facts:
Foreign intelligence agencies setting menu prices for killing Pakistanis!

 

[Counterpunch]

I think we need to start rewarding and appreciating the efforts of the armed forces. We can conveniently write them off by a stroke of keyboard saying they are not doing enough. When we have a thankful and motivated population behind we can do wonders. We must understand the times we are living in and the challenges we are faced with and I fully agree with the need to be honest, proactive and intelligent enough to understand our part of the battle and role

But of most significance are the media houses and the Jumma congregations. They must be streamlined and brought to main stream. Topic should be chosen by the government countrywide and deviations should be punished.

Extraordinary times require extraordinary measures and such are the times!

 

[VCheng]

Everybody does appreciate the hard work done by the armed forces in improving the security situation in Pakistan. They have done a good job in this regard.

However, the topic in this thread is that the fight against terrorism cannot be theirs alone to fight. The armed forces need backing from the nation that is lacking, and therefore the fight is being hampered, and is faltering quite predictably. The reasons are important, as many posts above have discussed.

 

[Verve]

I think we need to start rewarding and appreciating the efforts of the armed forces. We can conveniently write them off by a stroke of keyboard saying they are not doing enough. When we have a thankful and motivated population behind we can do wonders. We must understand the times we are living in and the challenges we are faced with and I fully agree with the need to be honest, proactive and intelligent enough to understand our part of the battle and role

But of most significance are the media houses and the Jumma congregations. They must be streamlined and brought to main stream. Topic should be chosen by the government countrywide and deviations should be punished.

Extraordinary times require extraordinary measures and such are the times!

Liberal Fascists will have issues with this approach as well. They feed off the other fascists.