Pakistanis be ready, time of action is here and now.

[Arsalan 345]

That is coward thinking!

Problem for us is that we think with our heart,not with our mind.

 

[Crusher]

Problem for us is that we think with our heart,not with our mind.

Even a child also knows that no one can think with his "heart", the thinking part is only done by brain, so how the hell I am thinking with "heart" when "heart" has no capability to execute a thinking process.

 

[imadul]

Everything happens when its meant to happen. No a minute sooner or later. If it didn't happen, then we were not ready as a nation to have it. We also lost East Pakistan as a collective punishment for our own doings.
Are we better as a nation now to deserve more from the Almighty?
If and when we are, things will move and we will get what we deserve.
Until then, do not talk about who did what and what they could have done, but talk about whatever could've been done would have resulted in the same outcome because things don't happen as per the planning of humans.
I hope you would know that much being a Muslim?

You pay for centuries for mistakes of a moment.
India just rescinded 370 and 35A.
More slaughter of Kashmiris.

 

[Armchair]

His buddy at that time was Kennedy---. He stated that Kennedy promised him to resolve Kashmir---so he did not want to upset his 'buddy' Kennedy by capturing Kashmir in 1962 in a military action---

It seems consistently that the military hierarchy is more "afraid" and "loyal" to foreign powers than to their own people. Everywhere, even the sensitivities of India to their aircraft being shot down. More important than the safety of the Pak nation, who pay them their salaries and pensions, and housing schemes, and trips to London and New York...

I remember in the 2000s seeing an DG ISI generals son travelling the world and them living in a palace-like house. All this, the poor Pakistani people pay for, what about their sensitivities? What about being loyal to them?

These secular, godless, Macauley's children will never be loyal to anyone. What was that saying, dhobi ghat ke kuthe...

 

[nahtanbob]

In 1965 Bhutto and Ayub overestimated Kashmiri response... Or lack of response.. that was like The Bay of Pigs for Pakistan.. In 1999 Musharraf underestimated the Indian response..
But what is Crystal Clear now is the American desperation to seek Pakistan's help in Afghanistan.. actually Trump's personal desperation to be reelected.. and also clear that India is more failed in Kashmir than ever before since 1947...
Too many tyrants in history were very efficient and democratically elected... just weren't visionaries... Mr Modi perhaps joining the ranks...

Why would Trump be re-elected even if there was Afghanistan peace plan ? some of the posters have delusions of grandeur

 

[Meengla]

Why would Trump be re-elected even if there was Afghanistan peace plan ? some of the posters have delusions of grandeur

Oh come on. A peaceful exit from Afghanistan after almost two decades of expensive, futile war is a big bragging right and definitely a plus for Trump.
Personally, I can't stand this phony guy but... it is what it is.

 

[nahtanbob]

Oh come on. A peaceful exit from Afghanistan after almost two decades of expensive, futile war is a big bragging right and definitely a plus for Trump.
Personally, I can't stand this phony guy but... it is what it is.

pulling out of Afghanistan is a plus for America and for Trump. But will it change the elections ?

 

[Meengla]

pulling out of Afghanistan is a plus for America and for Trump. But will it change the elections ?

I am not sure the impact. But my guess is it will be significant. Currently, both American the left and right are very much for non-involvement in foreign entanglements. Trump can boast on and on about how he ended a futile two decade war which no other US President had the nerve to end.

Of course we will not have a scientific way of knowing the impact, would we? People are still speculating how much the Bin Laden death contributed to Obama's win. It certainly helped him.

 

[nahtanbob]

I am not sure the impact. But my guess is it will be significant. Currently, both American the left and right are very much for non-involvement in foreign entanglements. Trump can boast on and on about how he ended a futile two decade war which no other US President had the nerve to end.

Of course we will not have a scientific way of knowing the impact, would we? People are still speculating how much the Bin Laden death contributed to Obama's win. It certainly helped him.

American politics is so polarized for foreign policy to make an impact
it is about immigration, race, social hot button issues and economic inequality

 

[Meengla]

American politics is so polarized for foreign policy to make an impact
it is about immigration, race, social hot button issues and economic inequality

You are right. Currently, foreign policy is not that much of a topic, unlike what led to Hillary's defeat in 2008 to Obama for nomination.

 

[Psychic]

Musharraf did the right thing, maybe we wouldn’t be here today with a radical leading neighboring country and two nations on verge of nuclear conflict, If army would’ve pressed India further instead of pulling back during kargil. I’m sure Kashmir would’ve been solved. We all noticed change in Indian tone after kargil thrashing till Mumbai attacks. Indeed we missed a golden chance to give a knock out punch to enemy and sacrifices of our shaeeds went down the drain. Only a traitor can pull out such a stunt against his people.

Army and airforce was in no position to push any further.

Our posts were falling, jawans were dying, supplies were cut off.

Musharraf asked ganja to bail him out.

And you believe Musharraf's word over others? The man who initiated a coup was so obedient that he withdrew on ganja's orders despite "winning".

Musharraf lied to the nation. It's time we learn from past mistakes, instead of glorifying them as victories.

And Bhutto did the same with Ayub, saying that he lost on table what we won on field ; reality was that we didn't win, but it was a stalemate.

In Kargil however, it was not stalemate but total loss for us. Minus a bunch of peaks close to LOC.

 

[airmarshal]

Whatever is happening in Kashmir now, there does not seem to be any ground to talk. The only peaceful effort could be mediation. If not, we are heading to a war.

BJP is a fascist party. Its progenitor RSS was inspired by 20s fascist movements of Franco in Spain, Mussolini in Italy and Nazis in Germany. The kind of destruction those fascists movement wreaked is for all to see. RSS somehow preserved itself and now with other extremists ideologies taking hold around the world, it seems like we are heading towards another big war.

Army and airforce was in no position to push any further.

Our posts were falling, jawans were dying, supplies were cut off.

Musharraf asked ganja to bail him out.

And you believe Musharraf's word over others? The man who initiated a coup was so obedient that he withdrew on his orders despite "winning".

Musharraf lied to the nation. It's time we learn from past mistakes, instead of glorifying them as victories.

And Bhutto did the same with Ayub, saying that he lost on table what we won on field ; reality was that we didn't win, but it was a stalemate.

In Kargil however, it was not stalemate but total loss for us. Minus a bunch of peaks close to LOC.

Musharraf lied I think. He was a coward. Sharif was even bigger coward. The way Musharraf capitulated in front of Americans is quite humiliating. He had good traits, better than the leaders of NRO democracy that followed. But he did a lot of damage to Kashmir cause and Pakistan economy by loose the dogs like Sharif and Benazir/Zardari

 

[Psychic]

If our air force was capable during Kargil---the map of Kashmir would not be the same---.

That is very true.

India had already amassed more than half a million troops in Kashmir. Bogged down by mujahideen, their forces were stuck in a quagmire.

When Kargil happened, India re-deployed around 35K troops along with all of their bofors from the plains of Punjab and Rajhistan to Kargil.

India was in panic mode as the life line of around 40K of it's troops in Siachen and along Chinese frontier was at risk as their highway could be blocked by observed artillery fire.

Now despite tactical blunders of Musharraf, Aziz and Mahmud had PAF been a capable force, it could've knocked out bofors by sacrificing a few planes. India also feared an SSG attack on her bofors. Air cover for our soldiers would've given them a free hand to deal with ground attackers. LGB wielding mirages would've been locking horns with PAF instead.

With a large number of Indian troopers trapped in Kashmir and out of them a great number double trapped in Siachen---Had PAF been strong, there would've been a state of fear among the enemy of a Pakistani tank thrust from Shakargarh delivering coup-de-grace---cutting off mainland from Jammu.

That would've forced India to negotiations, at our terms. A 1971, in reverse. But, PAF was too weak in 1999.

The weaknesses of India's bloated army became public during the 2001-2 stand-off when it suffered huge losses and problems. Losing close to 2000 soldiers without firing a single shot to deployment accidents.

The state of her munitions was another story, the number of shells fired during Kargil and money spent on them was ridiculous. Against a small force which was already starving for ammo and rations.

Having said all of that, in reality , because of lack of airpower, Musharraf shouldn't have initiated that attack which was doomed to fail from the get-go.

 

[imadul]

It seems consistently that the military hierarchy is more "afraid" and "loyal" to foreign powers than to their own people. Everywhere, even the sensitivities of India to their aircraft being shot down. More important than the safety of the Pak nation, who pay them their salaries and pensions, and housing schemes, and trips to London and New York...

I remember in the 2000s seeing an DG ISI generals son travelling the world and them living in a palace-like house. All this, the poor Pakistani people pay for, what about their sensitivities? What about being loyal to them?

These secular, godless, Macauley's children will never be loyal to anyone. What was that saying, dhobi ghat ke kuthe...

Not to take advantage of 1962 indo-china war was foolish act of Ayub. But Pak Army has shown its mettle in present time by defeating world's fiercest and most ruthless terrorist syndicate TTP, supported by India, Afg, and with tacit approval from USA.
Even US and NATO, world's most powerful military machine had to spend trillions in Iraq to defeat the insurgency but the miscarriage gave birth to dreadful ISIS.
Pakistan Army did a miracle in Pakistan.

 

[Armchair]

Not to take advantage of 1962 indo-china war was foolish act of Ayub. But Pak Army has shown its mettle in present time by defeating world's fiercest and most ruthless terrorist syndicate TTP, supported by India, Afg, and with tacit approval from USA.
Even US and NATO, world's most powerful military machine had to spend trillions in Iraq to defeat the insurgency but the miscarriage gave birth to dreadful ISIS.
Pakistan Army did a miracle in Pakistan.

Yes, I agree and now we have some of the most battle-hardened troops on earth. We just need proper generals and a strong economy and political leadership.

We need to match India in more innovative ways, like bringing in a second tier with a conscript army to support our professional army. This is what Israel did and all smaller countries, when facing a larger country, do.

We need to have an effective air force that cooperates with the Army and navy. And then we need to have the balls and a plan to take back Kashmir. Not as a limited war along the LOC, but, knowing that India will attack on all fronts, start a full scale war along the entire border. Attack places they don't expect (they always expect us to try to cut of Kashmir, and we always oblige).

Once we have attacked fast and hard, in an unexpected time and place(s), we can then trade territory for Kashmir, and if we press the attack and use the right tactics, we may be able to defeat India in a way reminiscent of German takeover of France. But we have to be persistent, be brave and see the war through. We have to have a top military command based on merit and not seniority or old boys club.