Pakistani PM hails China as his country's 'best friend'

[53fd]

Good development and true statement.

But would be better if the statement is not repeated every month...

What, you don't like it? It irks the US too, the statement being repeated every month.

 

[53fd]

People don't realize that Pakistan is very important to China as well, & vice versa of course. Besides being the energy corridor, Pakistan is also imperative for controlling its separatist movements in Xinjiang (which Pakistan had nothing to do with). Then there is trade as well.

 

[ephone]

First, of course ISI works for the interest of Pakistan.

Second, I did not say ISI as a whole supports terrorists. I simply suspect, the same way as what your former president has suspected, certain people in your army and ISI have links with OBL and Talibans and provided shelters for them continuously within Pakistan. In addition, those supporters may not be the top rank officials but I doubt their ranks can be that low either. Otherwise, they won't be able to provide the shelters that efficiently.

Third, as for the origin of talibans as well as al qaida, we all know it can be traced back to the mid-east conflict, U.S.S.R's invasion into Afghanistan and then the first gulf war. To safeguard the interest of Pakistan in Afghanistan, Pakistan army and ISI have heavy involvement with then Mujahideen and later Talibans after Soviet's withdrawal.

To be honest, after general Zia-ul-Haq's coop and his killing of toppled Pakistan Premier Minister Ali Bhutto, he adopted policies to get Pakistan on its way to the state's Islamization. That can also be another cause for the widespread islam fundamentalists within Pakistan nowadays. He for sure did not have much support for his policies in the world but U.S.S.R's invasion saved him. He suddenly became such an important person in U.S.'s involvement against U.S.S.R.

Well, Pakistan's continual involvement with Taliban is understandable since it is such an important tool for Pakistan to extend its control in Afghanistan. However, continual involvement with Al Qaida is not understandable at all since Pakistan has joined the allied force in WOT an Al Qaida is directly responsible for many terrorist activities including 9/11.

ephone what should be the role of ISI in pakistan? The role of isi is to work for the best interest of the country so why ISI should support terrorists who kill our soldiers and innocent peoples. Do you think ISI is enemy of pakistan army as according to you ISI has soft corner for terrorists. I am busy right now and will get back to you tomorrow to answer your questions as you dont know the origin of talibaans, difference between talbaan and alqaida or root cause of terrorism in this region. where were all these terrorists before 911?

 

[53fd]

First, of course ISI works for the interest of Pakistan.

Second, I did not say ISI as a whole supports terrorists. I simply suspect, the same way as what your former president has suspected, certain people in your army and ISI have links with OBL and Talibans and provided shelters for them continuously within Pakistan. In addition, those supporters may not be the top rank officials but I doubt their ranks can be that low either. Otherwise, they won't be able to provide the shelters that efficiently.

Third, as for the origin of talibans as well as al qaida, we all know it can be traced back to the mid-east conflict, U.S.S.R's invasion into Afghanistan and then the first gulf war. To safeguard the interest of Pakistan in Afghanistan, Pakistan army and ISI have heavy involvement with then Mujahideen and later Talibans after Soviet's withdrawal.

To be honest, after general Zia-ul-Haq's coop and his killing of toppled Pakistan Premier Minister Ali Bhutto, he adopted policies to get Pakistan on its way to the state's Islamization. That can also be another cause for the widespread islam fundamentalists within Pakistan nowadays. He for sure did not have much support for his policies in the world but U.S.S.R's invasion saved him. He suddenly became such an important person in U.S.'s involvement against U.S.S.R. (I have to finished the later part later)

Listen, while Pakistan's extremists can pose as a threat to you, as far as I'm concerned, there hasn't been anything from them instigating the separatist movements in Xinjiang. Also, China using Pakistan as a counterbalance against India can be harmful to Pakistan as well. Pakistan also brought China to the international scene with Kissinger's trip to China, when China was renowned mainly for human rights violations & Communism. Standing up for China then could have been detrimental for Pakistan's interests as well. Pakistan's projects with China to facilitate the energy corridor is already bringing a negative image for Pakistan from the international world. So please, instead of the lecturing, please realize that this is a relationship that is mutually beneficial, & while I take your point that Pakistan's extremists could pose a potential threat to China, remember, Pakistan is in a full fledged war right now with every country trying to get a piece of it, prior to 2004, there was not 1 suicide attack in Pakistan, but they were common in other parts of the world. All the problems started when the US pushed all the Al Qaeda & other terrorists from Afghanistan into Pakistan. They have made Pakistan their number one enemy. So please, realize that Pakistan does not have some global Islamist agenda. Pakistan is imperative for containing China's insurgency movement in Xinjiang, that it had nothing to do with in the first place. You also have separatist movements in places like Tibet that have nothing to do with Pakistan or Islam. I thanked you for your first post as you made some valuable points, but this is my response to you to get a little bit of perspective. China has been a loyal friend to Pakistan, it has stood up for Pakistan in difficult times, it has supported it immensely, & Pakistan has done the same for China in the past. Peace.

 

[53fd]

No offense to Chinese members for my last post, it was my response to ephone for his post. I thanked him for his first post because I think he made some valuable points before that I agree with for the most part. And Pakistan will forever be indebted & grateful for the support China has given Pakistan, & while Pakistan does not trust anyone 'blindly', it is probably the closest to doing that with China, as China has always supported Pakistan through thick & thin, & not imposed anything onto Pakistan. This kind of friendship is not found anywhere in the world, & I think other nations can learn from this.

 

[ephone]

Listen, while Pakistan's extremists can pose as a threat to you, as far as I'm concerned, there hasn't been anything from them instigating the separatist movements in Xinjiang. Also, China using Pakistan as a counterbalance against India can be harmful to Pakistan as well. Pakistan also brought China to the international scene with Kissinger's trip to China, when China was renowned mainly for human rights violations & Communism. Standing up for China then could have been detrimental for Pakistan's interests as well. Pakistan's projects with China to facilitate the energy corridor is already bringing a negative image for Pakistan from the international world. So please, instead of the lecturing, please realize that this is a relationship that is mutually beneficial, & while I take your point that Pakistan's extremists could pose a potential threat to China, remember, Pakistan is in a full fledged war right now with every country trying to get a piece of it, prior to 2004, there was not 1 suicide attack in Pakistan, but they were common in other parts of the world. All the problems started when the US pushed all the Al Qaeda & other terrorists from Afghanistan into Pakistan. They have made Pakistan their number one enemy. So please, realize that Pakistan does not have some global Islamist agenda. Pakistan is imperative for containing China's insurgency movement in Xinjiang, that it had nothing to do with in the first place. You also have separatist movements in places like Tibet that have nothing to do with Pakistan or Islam. I thanked you for your first post as you made some valuable points, but this is my response to you to get a little bit of perspective. China has been a loyal friend to Pakistan, it has stood up for Pakistan in difficult times, it has supported it immensely, & Pakistan has done the same for China in the past. Peace.

(1) It seems that you have got used to twist my words again and again. I have NOT said anywhere close to indicate: "Pakistan instigating the separatist movements in Xinjiang". I simply indicate that terrorist activities in Pakistan have been so severely widespread and it poses a foreseeable serious threat to China's stability in northwest region. Generally speaking, it may grow into a scale that is out of control by Pakistan since those terrorists enjoy the widespread support nowadays both from public and religious leaders both in Afghanistan and Pakistan and it seems that your government does not have effective ways to deal with that as well.

(2) The fact China using Pakistan as a counterbalance against India is well known. At the same time, Pakistan is also using China as a counterbalance against India as well. Harmful??? Are there any members from China or Pakistan denying such counterbalance roles both countries are playing??? As for Kissinger's role in establishing relationship between China and U.S. through Pakistan, well, Pakistan indeed was a great help. However, you have to understand that seeking normalization between China and U.S. is not simply one-directional. U.S. was desperate for that normalization as well after U.S.S.R's invasion into Afghanistan. The benefits were mutual to both China and U.S. If Pakistan could not help then, U.S. and China definitely can find another country to fit that role as well. The normalization is historically inevitable and whoever played the middleman role did not have to be one country only.

(3) About " separatist movements in places like Tibet that have nothing to do with Pakistan or Islam", I indeed agreed and I did NOT indicate any involvement of Pakistan either. Even for those islam terrorists in China, I did NOT indicate Pakistan's involvement as well. My point is simply concern that terrorist activities in Pakistan one day could be beyond the control of Pakistan and can seriously hurt the friendship between the two countries. You tell me that concern is not a valid concern and Pakistan can for sure safeguard its border with China? If that is the case, terrorists won't be that easy to slip through Pakistan/Afghanistan border as well to attack U.S. and allied force.

(4) As for "energy corridor" and its negative image for Pakistan, you need know that China has other options if Pakistan does not like such notion. Such energy corridor will benefit Pakistan tremendously as well. I do not understand about what you mean by negative image for Pakistan. In the past, China has been said "No" many times about energy issues, e.g. Russia's delay and break of promises, China can always find other solutions.

(5) As for "Standing up for China then could have been detrimental for Pakistan's interests", how many times has China stood up for Pakistan in the past? I do NOT think China has considered that much about ""Standing up for Pakistan then could have been detrimental for China's interests".

(6) About " US pushed all the Al Qaeda & other terrorists from Afghanistan into Pakistan", it is your border and Pakistan army cannot control its border??? Pakistan is on the same side in WOT, not the opposite. If that is the case, my concern of terrorists slipping between China and Pakistan is indeed already valid and even more serious.

(7) About "Pakistan does not have some global Islamist agenda", I have NOT indicated anything slightly close to that notion either. My concern is simply that terrorist activities with Pakistan seems to be growing out of control of Pakistan's ability.

 

[Obambam]

People don't realize that Pakistan is very important to China as well, & vice versa of course. Besides being the energy corridor, Pakistan is also imperative for controlling its separatist movements in Xinjiang (which Pakistan had nothing to do with). Then there is trade as well.

It's a fact that to survive and to be successful in the modern world which we live in, we must have interactions with everyone close and afar. China-Pakistan, undoubtedly, shares important common interests and mutual benefits. The fact that we are close neighbours makes it even more important for us to co-operate and protect eachothers interests. Simply put it, China's problem can just as easily become Pakistan's problem as it is the other way around. The relationship between both countries aren't something that can be joked about either, it has been time tested and neither side has bailed out on its support for one another in times of need. That is one thing countries elsewhere should learn from.

It is unfortunate for Pakistan to be caught in the middle of the American war on terror. Most people would agree on the ones committing all these suicide bombings aren't even true Muslims or Pakistanis. They are extremists that are driven into Pakistan by the Americans.
Pakistan was a convenient scapegoat for the Americans and international media for its ongoing and constant failure to bring peace to the world.
Hopefully the inclusion of Pakistan into the SCO will enable Pakistan and the member states to share important Intel, tackle and address these security issues together. America's imminent withdrawl from Afghanistan will only make things better everyone within the region.

 

[huzihaidao12]

ephone, do not simply to blame Pakistan, where there is a more complex situation than you think. the issue of extremism is not just the problem of extremism, he is deeply complex relationship to Pakistan's national security, economic development and social, if You can not have enough interest in these issues for Pakistan, it is pointless to blame Pakistan. I am sure that Pakistan also did not want so life now. As a long time neighbor and friend, we can not play games like the U.S., the best approach is to provide enough space in Pakistan, a long-term peace and economic development, certainly have a better space than war. War will lead to confusion. because of confusion, every player wants to play games, this is just more confusing to the regional situation. Pakistan certainly concerned about their safety and interests first, not much spare capacity to solve the problem of extremism. If there is no deep understanding and concern for Pakistan's own interest, it is meaningless to talk about extremism in Pakistan.

 

[ephone]

"blame Pakistan"???

You read my post carefully??? Is my intention to write the posts to blame Pakistan??? All my intention is express a valid concern and hope Pakistan can do more to get rid of those terrorists within its border. It is not a blame game/post.

ephone, do not simply to blame Pakistan, where there is a more complex situation than you think. the issue of extremism is not just the problem of extremism, he is deeply complex relationship to Pakistan's national security, economic development and social, if You can not have enough interest in these issues for Pakistan, it is pointless to blame Pakistan. I am sure that Pakistan also did not want so life now. As a long time neighbor and friend, we can not play games like the U.S., the best approach is to provide enough space in Pakistan, a long-term peace and economic development, certainly have a better space than war. War will lead to confusion. because of confusion, every player wants to play games, this is just more confusing to the regional situation. Pakistan certainly concerned about their safety and interests first, not much spare capacity to solve the problem of extremism. If there is no deep understanding and concern for Pakistan's own interest, it is meaningless to talk about extremism in Pakistan.

 

[53fd]

(1) It seems that you have got used to twist my words again and again. I have NOT said anywhere close to indicate: "Pakistan instigating the separatist movements in Xinjiang". I simply indicate that terrorist activities in Pakistan have been so severely widespread and it poses a foreseeable serious threat to China's stability in northwest region. Generally speaking, it may grow into a scale that is out of control by Pakistan since the widespread support those terrorists enjoy nowadays both from public and religious leaders both in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

As I said, you have no possible way of knowing that. And like I told you before, the first suicide bombing Pakistan faced inside the country was after 2004, when the US had already pushed Al-Qaeda terrorists inside Pakistani territory. I am very optimistic that this will all come to an end when this WOT is over.

The fact China using Pakistan as a counterbalance against India is well known. At the same time, Pakistan is also using China as a counterbalance against India as well. Harmful??? Are there any members from China or Pakistan denying such counterbalance roles both countries are playing???

No, it's good for Pakistan as well, of course. It presents several challenges as well though.

As for Kissinger's role in establishing relationship between China and U.S. through Pakistan, well, Pakistan indeed was a great help. However, you have to understand that seeking normalization between China and U.S. is not simply one-directional. U.S. was desperate for that normalization as well after U.S.S.R's invasion into Afghanistan.

The first trip Kissinger made to China was in September 1970 through Pakistan's insistence, when the US was a huge superpower, when the collapse of the Soviet Union was not anywhere in sight. At the time, it was Pakistan that stood up for China, & made its presence known in the world.

The benefits were mutual to both China and U.S. If Pakistan could not help then, U.S. and China definitely can find another country to fit that role as well. The normalization is historically inevitable and whoever played the middleman role did not have to be one country only.

Tell me which country would have marketed China to the US, that was favorable in the eyes of the US in 1970. Japan? No. Anyone else?

My point is simply concern that terrorist activities in Pakistan one day could be beyond the control of Pakistan and can seriously hurt the friendship between the two countries.

Pakistan is well aware of it, which is why it is trying to end this WOT asap, because it (the WOT) is further worsening the situation of the region. But it looks like the WOT is coming to a close, & don't be surprised to see things go pretty much back to normal again.

You tell me that concern is not a valid concern and Pakistan can for sure safeguard its border with China?

I don't think it is a concern, because most of the international Al Qaeda terrorist network is in Kunar, Nuristan Afghanistan; not Pakistan. Pakistan mostly has 'local' Pashtun groups that don't follow the same ideology, or have the same traditions as the Muslims in Xinjiang. Meaning they won't get along with them. Pakistan's Pashtun groups are more allied on the basis of tribal affiliations than they are with anything else. Everyone hates the other few Al Qaeda terrorists & their affiliates, & they are being fought against everyday. China should be wary of the Al Qaeda terrorists & their affiliates with respect to Xinjiang, even the US is now in peace treaties with the local Pashtun groups in Afghanistan. China does not need to be wary of them.

As for "energy corridor" and its negative image for Pakistan, you need know that China has other options if Pakistan does not like such notion. China can always find other solutions.

But none of them is as convenient & efficient as this, as well as the most cost effective way as this.

Such energy corridor will benefit Pakistan tremendously as well.

Of course it will.

I do not understand about what you mean by negative image for Pakistan.

There are some separatists inside Pakistan in Balochistan that don't want China exploiting their resources. These separatists are funded from Afghanistan. There is also the international coverage & negative image given to Pakistan from the international media on this.

As for "Standing up for China then could have been detrimental for Pakistan's interests", how many times has China stood up for Pakistan in the past? I do NOT think China has considered that much about ""Standing up for Pakistan then could have been detrimental for China's interests".

Yes, China has stood up more times for Pakistan than vice versa, & Pakistan is eternally grateful to China for that. Pakistan has never considered "Standing up for China has been detrimental to Pakistan", & in fact, no Pakistani has ever thought that, including me. But you probably do think the vice versa is true, even though most Chinese people don't think that.

 

[huzihaidao12]

In fact, the moderate Middle Eastern countries has been to curb extremism, but after the U.S. invasion of Iraq, the mood of Muslim people can not containment were incited by extremism. The Palestinian-Israeli problem is another source of extremism. You can play the blame game on any given day, but if you do not solve the root of the problem, it is pointless to apply pressure. blame game does not really mean approach to solve the problem of terrorism. If China to help Pakistan to solve the peace, the economy, a series of safety problems Pakistan still holds a special system in special circumstances, then China will have a high attitude to blame Pakistan. And that time I do not think Pakistan is still nothing in the fight against extremism.

 

[Obambam]

In a sense I do agree with ephone. I just think he is too overly enthusiastic with getting his points across and got too emotional on the process of doing so.

Simply put it, if there are no 'common' and 'mutual' interests, then there will be 'no healthy relationship'. The security issues in Pakistan wasn't there until the war on terror became a full fletched war. We mustn't blame Pakistan and question it's ability to handle these issues. China cannot blame it's security issues on anyone as it is their own responsibility to do so. Besides, Pakistan are already having enough problems to deal with as things stand.
China should handle it's own internal affairs accordingly and refrain from doing another American - When one cannot solve a problem, blame the rest.

We all have hopes and that the ongoing relationship between China and pakistan will only become stronger in the years to come. 'We need the relationship to remain healthy and we will protect it at all cost' was pretty much the message sent out by China and Pakistan camp. It has been like that for the past 60 years. Our relationship was further tested and strengthened by the OBL incident when the whole world was literally dying to get a piece of Pakistan. Instead of jumping bandwagons, China came out and issued a stern warning to the world not to interfere with Pakistan's internal affairs and respect it's sovereignty then gave Pakistan their utmost support. Those were the decisions and actions taken by the Chinese government and I think it speaks volumes for our relationship.

 

[huzihaidao12]

"blame Pakistan"???

You read my post carefully??? Is my intention to write the posts to blame Pakistan??? All my intention is express a valid concern and hope Pakistan can do more to get rid of those terrorists within its border. It is not a blame game/post.

This is simple to blame. In fact, I have been able to agree that Pakistan and China , our differences can be more open, so I will not stop you and the other members of Pakistan. But, brother, you have to for a long time in the PDF, What do you think is the reason there is a large number of extremist incidents? like I said, if China to help Pakistan to solve some real problems. still Pakistan maintain the same, I will be the first to blame Pakistan. But I think It is not possible, the Pakistani people also love life, passionate people, no one really likes terrorism.

 

[kawaraj]

Fact is the majority of Chinese believe Pakistan is their best, all weathered friend and a brother, that's very true. In return most Pakistanis think China is their big brother, someone they can count on.

That's enough, bros. No more wording. In the future, the brotherhood maybe even closer.

 

[ephone]

"blame Pakistan"???

You read my post carefully??? Is my intention to write the posts to blame Pakistan??? All my intention is express a valid concern and hope Pakistan can do more to get rid of those terrorists within its border. It is not a blame game/post.

As for China's support towards Pakistan, I indeed think that is the right way as well.

However, no matter how much support we provide for Pakistan, it will be tremendously hard for Pakistan to move forward even though many members here have sincerely hope Pakistan can grow like China in the past 30 years.

Seriously, is it realistic for Pakistan to have any growth similar like what China has achieved in the past 30 years? How about even half of that???

Honestly, I do not think it is possible for Pakistan to do anything close to that even solving its terrorist problems within its borders. We all have best wishes for Pakistan but as long as I have put forward a valid concern, all of the bricks are thrown onto me. Of course, I know to play safe, the best way to write a post is just to sing along with everybody else about our friendship day in and day out.

Does that help Pakistan that much??? We have been providing help to Pakistan for the past decades, how many progress have we seen so far??? Looking at Pakistan's development over the past decades since its development, why don't someone here tell me which era Pakistan indeed enjoy its fastest development and which era Pakistan has slowed down dramatically? What are the differences of the political atmosphere Pakistan has between those two eras???