Pakistani PM hails China as his country's 'best friend'

[kawaraj]

In anti-terrorist part, I am indeed pro-America. However, where did you see my admission: "he even admitted that he is American himself"???

seems in technology civilization spreading, you are also indeed pro-America, and etc. I read you post in this thread.

I don't know if you are aware the US has been sanctioning China from PRC founding? economically and technologically throughout of the 60 years. That could the most severe sanction and against human civilization in the entire human history. You don't think that's evil? and whenever China has new tech, the west will smear it as stealing, or copying, or reverse engineering, that's not evil?

if you are ok with it, I would say you are not only Pro-America, you are actually Anti-China.

Fair?

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Ephone @ very few articles tell you how Pakistan has suffered in war on terror especially its Army. Pakistan has lost more soldiers in the fight against Taliban than all its western allies combined.

If you find it hard to believe, just look at the figures. Canada, the US and all the other coalition forces lost 2,058 soldiers but Pakistan's military alone lost 2,348 soldiers. This excludes all the people who have died from bomb blasts resulting from this foreign War on Terror.

Did you know that a Pakistani soldier earnsonly 231 dollars a month on an average? One patient suffering from brain trauma after being shot in the head only received a disability benefit of 18 dollars. But still these brave soldiers are doing their duties every day so that we can live alife of peace. Around 6,710 soldiers have been injured in this war.

All the Western Media talks about is how Pakistan is not doing enough to fight Terrorism. We hear the Head of States most loved phrase 'Do More' quite often. Each and every person in Pakistan has paid a price. There is a general air of terror and hopelessness.

In the end it should be pointed out that The Pakistan Army is doing all of the battle, while the armies of the US and its Allies do not want to get their feet to get dirty they are using the drones to strike, which causes a lot of 'collateral damage' another fancy word used by the US (the greatest advocate of HumanRights)which refers to the innocent people that it has killed.

What more should Pakistan do?

 

[huzihaidao12]

wow, hot topic.

I know a lot of people, but frankly, ephone's words does not like typical chinese debate manner. or at least the mainland chinese(they are often clued and with sagacity). Words with constant question marks usually represent debate manners of some Chinese in Taiwan or South Korean.

I was supporting his view, but now I found he is less logical and often use offensive words, hope he is not behind some agenda. At least his view is not convincing. by the way, he admire the US more than his motherland. That's offending to me because in my eyes, the US is the most evil root in the world.

Still, may the brotherhood of Pakistan and China can withstand all noises.

Bingo, you're right, this is "their " features, and more, such as to deliberately avoid the issue, just do it one-sided emphasis, even though they know, still pretending not to know something. do not like to discuss the fact that more Likes to play with some tips, we are familiar with the "they " in the Chinese BBS.

 

[ephone]

First, you accuse me of something and you need give evidence, not just try to brush it off.

Where is my ADMISSION?

Second, about technology sanction, U.S. indeed has done that. However, I believe most of them are in military sectors. There are dramatic interchange, especially from U.S. to China in civilian sectors. In addition, China has benefited dramatically by sending its students to U.S. for higher education.

You can not simply say that China achieved last 30 years development without U.S.'s help.

Furthermore, about our nuclear weapons, satellite, ICBM and etc, you did not see where those scientists got their education from???

Among all of those who invaded China, U.S. has helped China the most. We can never forget history. However, we cannot refuse to recognize what U.S. has done to help China dramatically.

seems in technology civilization spreading, you are also indeed pro-America, and etc. I read you post in this thread.

I don't know if you are aware the US has been sanctioning China from PRC founding? economically and technologically throughout of the 60 years. That could the most severe sanction and against human civilization in the entire human history. You don't think that's evil? and whenever China has new tech, the west will smear it as stealing, or copying, or reverse engineering, that's not evil?

if you are ok with it, I would say you are not only Pro-America, you are actually Anti-China.

Fair?

 

[huzihaidao12]

First, you accuse me of something and you need give evidence, not just try to brush it off.

Where is my ADMISSION?

Second, about technology sanction, U.S. indeed has done that. However, I believe most of them are in military sectors. There are dramatic interchange, especially from U.S. to China in civilian sectors. In addition, China has benefited dramatically by sending its students to U.S. for higher education.

You can not simply say that China achieved last 30 years development without U.S.'s help.

Furthermore, about our nuclear weapons, satellite, ICBM and etc, you did not see where those scientists got their education from???

Among all of those who invaded China, U.S. has helped China the most. We can never forget history. However, we cannot refuse to recognize what U.S. has done to help China dramatically.

Is a clear idea of ​​slavery, to tell you, Mr. Slave, China did not free those who all have paid the price, the U.S. has also been significant benefits from the cooperation between China and the United States, even the Chinese are a lot of unfair treatment, for example, 30 years of rare earth prices remain at very low levels is a sufficient description.

It looks like you already do not need a mask, sir.

 

[ephone]

Admitting China benefiting dramatically from U.S. for the last 30 years means "idea of slavery"???

Both benefit from the cooperation. However, the unfair treatment is mutual. Both look for their own benefits but also look for co-operation.

Even for rare earth prices, we only blame U.S.??? We do not have us to blame for not be able to have an effective control???

We blame U.S. for QE2. Well, do you know how much money we have printed each year to throw them into circulation? In addition, are you sure what China does to RMB is not manipulation???

You seem to notice faults always from others but have no interest to look at faults from your own. Is that healthy mindset?

Is a clear idea of ​​slavery, to tell you, Mr. Slave, China did not free those who all have paid the price, the U.S. has also been significant benefits from the cooperation between China and the United States, even the Chinese are a lot of unfair treatment, for example, 30 years of rare earth prices remain at very low levels is a sufficient description.

It looks like you already do not need a mask, sir.

 

[ephone]

Selective???

Why don't you tell me how U.S. should have responded after 9/11? diplomatic dialog with taliban??? Hasn't U.S. done that already? Did not Taliban refuse to give up OBL and its associates???

I hope nobody here told me OBL has nothing to do with 9/11.

I do think U.S. invasion into Iraq is overly-extended. However, invasion into Afghanistan is a must. Getting rid of OBL and Taliban is a must as well.

As for Pakistan, by then there was no other choice for Musharraf to say No to U.S.

For Pakistani members, I may understand they have sympathy for Taliban since Pakistan has used Taliban as an effective leverage in Afghanistan in the past to control/influence Afghanistan. For Chinese members, I just have no idea how you can consider yourself be in the same line as those. Those talibans trained those uighur terrorists to sabotage our own country.

As I have said, you stay in the west, enjoy all the benefits of latest human development, freedom from terrorists, while denouncing the west. If you hate the west that much, why do you stay there???

It's about the approach. When America's hard approach doesn't work, perhaps a soft approach would?
And no we are not entirely anti-west. We are very selective about it. There are good and there are bad things about the west. However, when it comes to issues regarding foreign policies and military affairs, it is more common to find negativities than it is positives.
As regards to common interests yes we are deeply intertwined economically, but not all interests are common. They wanted to suffocate us and applied the sanction and we wanted to milk them as much as possible and we enjoy the trade surplus.

 

[humanfirst]

Ephone @ very few articles tell you how Pakistan has suffered in war on terror especially its Army. Pakistan has lost more soldiers in the fight against Taliban than all its western allies combined.



What more should Pakistan do?

In simple words pakistan-its army and citizens should stop differentiating between good taliban and bad taliban.Pakistan have not taken any action against afghan taliban factions inside pakistan who regularly cross borders and attack nato-all this 9 years of wot..and even at citizen level,we can see massive support to afghan taliban at pakistani web forums-where you guys cheer afghan taliban as great warriors fighting nato invaders.With this policies pakistan have no right to claim any sacrifice in "wot".

 

[huzihaidao12]

Admitting China benefiting dramatically from U.S. for the last 30 years means "idea of slavery"???

Both benefit from the cooperation. However, the unfair treatment is mutual. Both look for their own benefits but also look for co-operation.

Even for rare earth prices, we only blame U.S.??? We do not have us to blame for not be able to have an effective control???

We blame U.S. for QE2. Well, do you know how much money we have printed each year to throw them into circulation? In addition, are you sure what China does to RMB is not manipulation???

You seem to notice faults always from others but have no interest to look at faults from your own. Is that healthy mindset?

If you're in hell for too long, you may not know it was hell. I'll give you a summary of all the so-called arguments. Yes, China has received great interests from the cooperation of the United States, but the same, the United States has also been a huge benefit from cooperation with China, it is their interests, China has not begging, we work hard. You see, why do you have a deep-rooted ideological slaves. Let us be clear and direct all things, all of your shows just to emphasize unilateral the United States have a huge boon for China. Hello, Mr. Slave.

Like I said, some people like to show its skills, but I can tell you a Chinese, "a wise man's eyes or even clear a sand in the eye." Techniques can not cover up your ulterior motives. Do you think I said enough to clear ? the hard workr of US propagandists, Mr. Slave.

By the way, if that currency manipulation, no one compared to the United States. All countries are dwarfs compared to the behavior of the U.S. currency manipulation.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Take a look at some China's BBS, take a look at PDF, Some Americans all like play skills than heart in exchange. Sir,Other people more clearly than you think.

You're in hell for too long, you may not know it was hell.

 

[ephone]

Can you at least write your comments in a logical sentence???

I have no idea what the heck you are trying to say.

Take a look at some China's BBS, take a look at PDF, Some Americans all like play skills than heart in exchange. Sir,Other people more clearly than you think.

You're in hell for too long, you may not know it was hell.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Can you at least write your comments in a logical sentence???

I have no idea what the heck you are trying to say.

In fact, you very clearly what I mean, this is the reason you do not reply to my last post, jump to the second post. If you can not go to the debate, and then began to play skill games, thank you for your cooperation to prove my Judgments.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Selective???
I do think U.S. invasion into Iraq is overly-extended. However, invasion into Afghanistan is a must. Getting rid of OBL and Taliban is a must as well.
As for Pakistan, by then there was no other choice for Musharraf to say No to U.S.
For Pakistani members, I may understand they have sympathy for Taliban since Pakistan has used Taliban as an effective leverage in Afghanistan in the past to control/influence Afghanistan. For Chinese members, I just have no idea how you can consider yourself be in the same line as those. Those talibans trained those uighur terrorists to sabotage our own country

Dude to be honest i always like the posts of Chinese members on this forum. They have very mature/cool minded and realistic approach and they also avoid making big claims as some Indians and Pakistani do here. The problem with you is that you try to justify every single policy of west for whatever reason while trying to put all blame on Pakistan. Again we Pakistani have sympathy only with innocent peoples who are getting killed on daily basis either because of suicide attacks of terrorists or because of USA drones attack

Why do you think Pakistan had no choice to say No to US? Why do you think Pakistan should have fought this war for US even when Alqaida and talibaan did not committed any terrorism in Pakistan before 9/11? Musharraf provided support to US in war on terror largely to protect his own dictator rule in the disguise of the national interests. As far as fighting against USSR then it was right for taliban to fight with those who invaded their country. Obviously we all know US did not call them terrorist when they were fighting with USSR. Instead US provided their support for them through Pakistan. Did not your beloved US proved that they love giving arms to Mujahdeen when they were fighting with communists . Its only when mujahideen are fighting against capitalist then they got the label of terrorists. Why this double standard?

Again If Saddam was dictator then who was Mushraf? Why war against one dictator while flower and support for other dictators? Iraq has been invaded by a foreign country without cause. Even if all of the lies the Bush administration told about Iraq were true, the invasion would still be a war crime according to the nuremberg trials. Any nation has the right to fight against an invading and occupying nation. That's called patriotism. And the invasion of Iraq has created many more terrorists in the world than Bin Laden could have dreamed of. US interference in Pakistan has destroyed the Pakistani people's trust in the military and with no trust in any government institutions, Pakistan is degenerating into chaos.

As I have said, you stay in the west, enjoy all the benefits of latest human development, freedom from terrorists, while denouncing the west. If you hate the west that much, why do you stay there???

Your arguments are lame again. Just because someone criticise the foreign polices of USA or Uk don't make him anti-west or hater. I criticised the policies of my leaders more than anyone else then according to you peoples should consider me anti-Pakistan. You don't have to justify every good or bad policies of your leaders to prove loyalty to your land. There is no perfect government, no perfect society. But lets face the truth of government of United States and what it does to achieve its goals. Its good you love west but you don't have to love the wrong polices. You wouldn't know it from the media coverage of Pakistan but Pakistan is not a US colony. Pakistan is a sovereign nation.

 

[ephone]

Dude to be honest i always like the posts of Chinese members on this forum. They have very mature/cool minded and realistic approach and they also avoid making big claims as some Indians and Pakistani do here. The problem with you is that you try to justify every single policy of west for whatever reason while trying to put all blame on Pakistan. Again we Pakistani have sympathy only with innocent peoples who are getting killed on daily basis either because of suicide attacks of terrorists or because of USA drones attack

First, you and other members always try to twist my words and put those big hats on my head, e.g. anti-islam, islam-phobia, india troll and etc. Am I anti-Pakistan? I do not think so. I do think Pakistan is the most important ally China has for a long time and will be for the future as well. However, can I still express some concerns related to the terrorist problems Pakistan currently face? Of course, if everything is contained within Pakistan, I will have less incentive to say anything about it. However, it seems that it is on the way to spread and be out of the control. When I see those people burn U.S. flags and weep for OBL, I am indeed worried. The problem is not U.S. flag burning but their loyalty to OBL and recognition of his ideology. That was hard to get rid of and is the fundamental root for next round of terrorist activities.

Clearly you have wronged me by saying that "I justify every single policy of west". That is simply totally untrue. U.S. continues to sell weapons to Taiwan according so-called U.S.-Taiwan relation Act. I am totally against that. U.S. and the west has supported Dalai Lama and those uighur terrorists including Rebiya Kadeer, I am totally against that as well since those are none of their business. I do not think U.S. should invade Iraq either. U.S. and west have played double-faced games when dealing with one dictator over the other. For example, U.S. and the west have not done anything to deal with those dictators in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and etc. In the past, Chile and many central american countries had dictators and causes hundreds of thousand people's death, U.S. did not do anything to stop it but facilitate it. I do not have to list all of those I am against to make my point. So what you try to say about me is absolutely not right.

In addition, my concerns over Pakistan's terrorist problems is not to blame Pakistan but to show my concern that great challenge Pakistan currently faces with. There are innocent people die every day during WOT. Why don't we ask what the root cause for this? OBL initiated those attacks and peaked its terrorist activities by 9/11. As for Taliban, initially they are NOT on U.S. and the west's enemy list. However, why don't anyone here blame Taliban for refusing giving OBL and his associates up??? Think about that, if 9/11 happened at TianAnMen Square at Beijing instead of New York, what should China do in this case??? You ask me what Pakistan can do more in the other post for which I have no time to reply then. I will say Pakistan need do a thorough investigation about those allegation of inside connection problems accused. Pakistan need make sure to get rid of all of those OBL sympathizers from your army and ISI. If not, your fight against terrorists won't be successful since there are always people inside who will sabotage the activity.

About OBL's killing, you think it is NOT ok to suspect there are inside connection between Pakistan army, ISI and OBL and its associates??? The fact OBL stayed in Pakistan for the last 5 or 6 years by your west point safely is simply by luck???
Why do you think Pakistan had no choice to say No to US? Why do you think Pakistan should have fought this war for US even when Alqaida and talibaan did not committed any terrorism in Pakistan before 9/11? Musharraf provided support to US in war on terror largely to protect his own dictator rule in the disguise of the national interests. As far as fighting against USSR then it was right for taliban to fight with those who invaded their country. Obviously we all know US did not call them terrorist when they were fighting with USSR. Instead US provided their support for them through Pakistan. Did not your beloved US proved that they love giving arms to Mujahdeen when they were fighting with communists . Its only when mujahideen are fighting against capitalist then they got the label of terrorists. Why this double standard?

About Pakistan's choice, Musharraf would have already said No if he had any other choice. Common people may say whatever he wanted. However, in the international environment then, you think Musharraf can tell U.S. fxxk off??? As for those Mujahidee-turned terrorists, during U.S.S.R. invasion, they fought Russians and why should U.S. call them terrorists. Actually, even during WOT, quite a few of Mujahideen are fighting on the U.S. side. Most of those terrorists are talibans and their foreign recruits from mid-east and africa. About Musharraf's incentive, I cannot comment on that since I do not know him. However, it does not matter who was the premier minister then. You can change him to Zia-Ul-Haq or B. Bhutto, none of them would have said No to U.S. then. The international environment and geopolical situation then decided that Pakistan need stand at the same side of U.S. and keep itself as far as possible from Talibans.

Again If Saddam was dictator then who was Mushraf? Why war against one dictator while flower and support for other dictators? Iraq has been invaded by a foreign country without cause. Even if all of the lies the Bush administration told about Iraq were true, the invasion would still be a war crime according to the nuremberg trials. Any nation has the right to fight against an invading and occupying nation. That's called patriotism. And the invasion of Iraq has created many more terrorists in the world than Bin Laden could have dreamed of. US interference in Pakistan has destroyed the Pakistani people's trust in the military and with no trust in any government institutions, Pakistan is degenerating into chaos.

Again, I do think Sadam is dictator and he used poison gas to kill his own people in a great number. If there is a way to get rid of him, that will be great. However, I do not think U.S. should use invasion to get rid of him when it committed fights against OBL and taliban. About those double-faced games U.S. is playing, it has done all the times. About nuremberg trials, I do not think it applies to U.S.-led invasion into Iraq. There won't be any war-crime trials either against U.S. and west. Sadam was considered evil and getting rid of him is just like getting rid of evil like Hitler. If anyone want to try U.S. and the west, at least you should ask Iraq people whether they want to send those governments to international court. I am really not sure Iraq people support your notion. About those terrorists created after U.S.-led invasion, they indeed created a lot of chaos. However, after more and more their heads being cut-off, e.g. OBL and etc, they won't be able to survive for long. They may be lasting for a long time but most of the times they are just annoying instead of creating real theats.


Your arguments are lame again. Just because someone criticise the foreign polices of USA or Uk don't make him anti-west or hater. I criticised the policies of my leaders more than anyone else then according to you peoples should consider me anti-Pakistan. You don't have to justify every good or bad policies of your leaders to prove loyalty to your land. There is no perfect government, no perfect society. But lets face the truth of government of United States and what it does to achieve its goals. Its good you love west but you don't have to love the wrong polices. You wouldn't know it from the media coverage of Pakistan but Pakistan is not a US colony. Pakistan is a sovereign nation.

As for criticizing government for foreign policies, that does not make anyone anti-west or hater. However, if you also support the enemy of the states, then you are the enemy of the states. For example, clearly there are members who stay in west but support talibans and OBL, that simply is not only anti-west but also can be considered dangerous to the society they stay. In your case, criticism is fine but supporting your country's enemy will indeed make you be at the other side of your country.

Above bolded are comments.

 

[Obambam]

Why don't you tell me how U.S. should have responded after 9/11? diplomatic dialog with taliban??? Hasn't U.S. done that already? Did not Taliban refuse to give up OBL and its associates???

So perhaps you can tell me how long NATO can go on attack for? and how WILL IT get rid of ALL the AL Qaedas? and ARE YOU saying Taliban and Al Qaedas are the same? Are there anything factual to prove who was actually behind 911 other than CLAIMS? Needless to say, OBL wasn't even given a fair trial to prove to the public what he did or in fact if he was actually the one behind everything? Everything was based on allegations is it not? Why did did Americans kill him instead of bringing him in for a trial? afraid of things the American government and its military doesn't want the public to know coming to light perhaps? I think you are merely a sheeple - a mouth piece for America, with little critical thinking capacity and under heavy influence of the American media.

I hope nobody here told me OBL has nothing to do with 9/11.

I just did. I questioned the extent of power the person actually have and was he behind EVERYTHING behind 911. Why not bring him in for a fair trial? why (allegedly) shot him dead when he was 'unarmed' and conveniently dump him into the sea and not videos or photos to prove it? Sure just go blindly believe in everything they want you to believe in. Perhaps that is the best reason to have a brain? I don't know about you, but I prefer to see facts, not 'believed to be','maybe', 'what if' or 'perhaps' etc.

I do think U.S. invasion into Iraq is overly-extended. However, invasion into Afghanistan is a must. Getting rid of OBL and Taliban is a must as well.

How long do you think they should be there for? Are you now saying that AQ and Talibans are the same? or are you conveniently labelling them both as one now? and let me give you an example here. Take Britain as example. We had problems with the Irish IRA terrorist groups but how did Britain address the issue? It was done diplomatically. They were convinced to lay down their arms and gave up on the yearly bombings. Do you think you can 100% eradicate them? I do not think so and it certainly isn't something a soon to be bankrupt America can address by itself.

As for Pakistan, by then there was no other choice for Musharraf to say No to U.S.

The situation isn't the same anymore. Pakistan will get to work ever more closely with China and Russia. I think the coming months or year is the best time for Pakistan to say no. The sooner Pakistan cut fighting wars for the Americans the better it is for its economy.

For Pakistani members, I may understand they have sympathy for Taliban since Pakistan has used Taliban as an effective leverage in Afghanistan in the past to control/influence Afghanistan.

More American rhetorics. Get your facts straight and stop pushing ALL the BLAME on to Pakistan. The American CIA funded them.

For Chinese members, I just have no idea how you can consider yourself be in the same line as those. Those talibans trained those uighur terrorists to sabotage our own country.

Oh really? Any facts you can show us to prove Talibans were training the Uyghur extremists? I think the roots to terrorism was America. They have always meddled with country's internal affairs, funding them and training them.

Again speaking for the Americans? I like the way you try pass the blames over to Pakistan, Talibans, AQ and now Chinese members. But you know what? It only further proves our point that you are Pro American, sheeple and lacks critical thinking to put forth a convincing argument. Don't talk about the Chinese idiom 'throwing bricks to attract jade' when all you really is doing is simply 'throwing the jade, crushing it with bricks and blowing the powdered jade around'.

As I have said, you stay in the west, enjoy all the benefits of latest human development, freedom from terrorists, while denouncing the west. If you hate the west that much, why do you stay there???

As I have said before. Ever since the WoT started, it has been more inconvenient for us than ever before. Perhaps you can explain why America have the TSA scan and molest children and elderlies? why destroyed the 4th Amendment by allowing police to enter homes without a search warrant etc?
You call those latest human developments? You call you sheep mindedness the latest human developments? If so then I beg to differ. I prefer to have a more 'conscious mind' and put to work my own views from 'both sides' and then exercise my own critical thinking thank you very much.

If you want to know why I am here? Then my answer is I have no need to tell you. If you think I hate the west so much? Then my answer is I don't hate the west so much, I just don't agree with certain believes and actions coming out of the west. Perhaps the very reason you are trying to throw on me were the very reason why you left China and resided in American instead?