Did you forget your very first response to my rebuttal was you insinuated I was lying?
I think you should look at the tone of your compatriots first.
What do you mean no proof?
This link talks about 1000 tanks by the end of Sept 2015 and it was an ongoing process that continued on until next year. And this is not counting the 300 upgraded in 2010.
Please tell me you are seriously not comparing IA's IFVs with PA's, right?
You should look up the type of tanks those 2000 are composed of. The Indian fleet numbers over 4500 in operational units and up to 6000 in total including reserves. The 3000 tanks I am talking about are highly upgraded with state of the art systems and their numbers have been increasing every year by the hundreds.
Similar capability tanks in the PA number about 600-700. And out of that 350 are not even comparable to the T-90S, let alone the T-90MS. The rest of PA's tanks are completely obsolete.
We do have SPHs. They are old, but they are still working. And we have a greater number of towed guns, not to mention the ammo for it.
Look, you have to compare what PA have with what IA have. PA's condition is absolutely terrible any any standards. IA is far, far too ahead in their modernization drive.
Your tone is very aggressive. I accused you of lying because simply put that is what you are doing.
Again, you are being deliberately misleading here.
India by no stretch of anyone's imagination has 6,000 tanks. You are now simply plucking figures out of the air, this is why it is pointless arguing with you.
To say India is far ahead in terms of it's armoured formations again simply beggars belief and also shows a neglect of modern armoured warfare and what it involves.
Yes, Pak has outdated T-59s and T-69s that will not far well against anything other then a T-72. However if you look at Pakistan's strike divisions, her very cutting edge then you are looking at formations that not just match India's but in many respects are superior. Add to this the shortage of ammunition of all types and much longer supply lines in case of war, then it is not a rosy picture at all in any short war India and Pakistan fight in the plains and deserts.
I will not do a tank V tank comparison as personally think there is not much between our T-80UDS/Khalids and the T-90s. The battle will not be won by minor differences in tank specs, whatever armchair warriors like you may think, but let me point out some major differences that Indian Armour will face against Pak Armour. Please be advised I am basing this on ground reality now, not what you think/hope India will induct, but things as they are now with equipment to hand.,
1) Night capable. Most tanks (Al Zarrar, Khalid and T-80) have nigh capable, only a portion of India's do. This difference is more pronounced in APCs.
2) Mechanisation. Pakistan has approx the same number of APCs/IFVs as India. So for an Army half the size this gives Pakistan relatively higher portion of mechnised units. Simply put we can send men into mechnised battle in the same numbers, whilst Indian superiority in manpower numbers will be negated in the plains and deserts and the rest of your men will be Truck mounted or walking. Additionally Pakistan has made massive investments in equipping a large portion of it's APCs with Bakter Shikan/TOW/ANZA/Stingers. India has not done this with BMPS that really on their main gun. As a result the threat to Indian Armour increases even more
3) Mechanised support. Pakistan builds it's own tracked armoured logistics and command vehicles that are in widespread service. This mean that our HQs and resupply formation can keen up with armour in desert terrain. India lacks severely in these.
4) SPH, as you acknowledge, India's SPHs are ancient to the point of being unsuable or a liability in combat (I am aware they are trying to order more modern stuff) 80 Abbots with 105mm guns , with 10 mile range which must have limited servicability and some old Soviet ones. This compares to 300 M109A5s in Pakistan. In fast moving desert warfare towed artillery will be useless. Pakistan has a very important edge here as Indian armour will be subject to heavy artillery fire at a range of 20 miles away. This can be defined as "bad" for Indian armour
5) Shortage of lines of communications. Simply put battle reserves and resupply will be easier for Pakistan, also anti-tank helicopter support in the form of 40 AH-1s with TOWS is not just superior but will have much shorter flying times to support troops in contact then Indian MI24s, which also present a much bigger target.
6) Defensive positions, as Cold Start calls for penetration into Pakistani territory you can be sure then well dug in anti-tank and mine positions will slow any Indian thrust, giving Pakistani armour more time to react to slow moving Indian formations.
7) As mentioned Pakistani troops have all been in battle with one of the toughest and well equipped guerilla armies in the world for over 16 years, with all respect to Indian Army, in a total different league to what they faces in Kashmir and North East. Western Generals have commentated on how well we have performed. Most Pakistani infantry and armoured units (in an infantry role) and rotated into these areas. Some of these young officers have faced very tough battles and in fact some of our officers have been requested to train western cadets with their experiance. These men have been under real fire and seen friends die. You simply cannot place a value on combat experiance, and at least for the next 20 years India will be facing many senior NCOs and officers who have been through this.
All the above factors do not mean Pakistan will win, but certainly point to the fact India is certainly not assured of victory.....
Your tone is very aggressive. I accused you of lying because simply put that is what you are doing.
Again, you are being deliberately misleading here.
India by no stretch of anyone's imagination has 6,000 tanks. You are now simply plucking figures out of the air, this is why it is pointless arguing with you.
To say India is far ahead in terms of it's armoured formations again simply beggars belief and also shows a neglect of modern armoured warfare and what it involves.
Yes, Pak has outdated T-59s and T-69s that will not far well against anything other then a T-72. However if you look at Pakistan's strike divisions, her very cutting edge then you are looking at formations that not just match India's but in many respects are superior. Add to this the shortage of ammunition of all types and much longer supply lines in case of war, then it is not a rosy picture at all in any short war India and Pakistan fight in the plains and deserts.
I will not do a tank V tank comparison as personally think there is not much between our T-80UDS/Khalids and the T-90s. The battle will not be won by minor differences in tank specs, whatever armchair warriors like you may think, but let me point out some major differences that Indian Armour will face against Pak Armour. Please be advised I am basing this on ground reality now, not what you think/hope India will induct, but things as they are now with equipment to hand.,
1) Night capable. Most tanks (Al Zarrar, Khalid and T-80) have nigh capable, only a portion of India's do. This difference is more pronounced in APCs.
2) Mechanisation. Pakistan has approx the same number of APCs/IFVs as India. So for an Army half the size this gives Pakistan relatively higher portion of mechnised units. Simply put we can send men into mechnised battle in the same numbers, whilst Indian superiority in manpower numbers will be negated in the plains and deserts and the rest of your men will be Truck mounted or walking. Additionally Pakistan has made massive investments in equipping a large portion of it's APCs with Bakter Shikan/TOW/ANZA/Stingers. India has not done this with BMPS that really on their main gun. As a result the threat to Indian Armour increases even more
3) Mechanised support. Pakistan builds it's own tracked armoured logistics and command vehicles that are in widespread service. This mean that our HQs and resupply formation can keen up with armour in desert terrain. India lacks severely in these.
4) SPH, as you acknowledge, India's SPHs are ancient to the point of being unsuable or a liability in combat (I am aware they are trying to order more modern stuff) 80 Abbots with 105mm guns , with 10 mile range which must have limited servicability and some old Soviet ones. This compares to 300 M109A5s in Pakistan. In fast moving desert warfare towed artillery will be useless. Pakistan has a very important edge here as Indian armour will be subject to heavy artillery fire at a range of 20 miles away. This can be defined as "bad" for Indian armour
5) Shortage of lines of communications. Simply put battle reserves and resupply will be easier for Pakistan, also anti-tank helicopter support in the form of 40 AH-1s with TOWS is not just superior but will have much shorter flying times to support troops in contact then Indian MI24s, which also present a much bigger target.
6) Defensive positions, as Cold Start calls for penetration into Pakistani territory you can be sure then well dug in anti-tank and mine positions will slow any Indian thrust, giving Pakistani armour more time to react to slow moving Indian formations.
7) As mentioned Pakistani troops have all been in battle with one of the toughest and well equipped guerilla armies in the world for over 16 years, with all respect to Indian Army, in a total different league to what they faces in Kashmir and North East. Western Generals have commentated on how well we have performed. Most Pakistani infantry and armoured units (in an infantry role) and rotated into these areas. Some of these young officers have faced very tough battles and in fact some of our officers have been requested to train western cadets with their experiance. These men have been under real fire and seen friends die. You simply cannot place a value on combat experiance, and at least for the next 20 years India will be facing many senior NCOs and officers who have been through this.
All the above factors do not mean Pakistan will win, but certainly point to the fact India is certainly not assured of victory.....
