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Pakistani laws prohibiting underage marriage un-Islamic: CII

No , I am really starting to believe that people stop thinking with their own mind when they see the " Islam " or " Islamic " word by seeing the responses here , if that is the case with the educated lot , God save the uneducated ones honestly . There's no one age at which one attains mental maturity required for marriage but there's no doubt that even the most modest scientific estimates exceed far beyond adolescence , a legal age whilst not being accurate of course has to be defined , since otherwise it would be chaotic and open for misuse and exploitation , as it is today in Pakistan despite the law in place . What you are forgetting that such little children aren't making their own free choices , they are merely endorsing the one from their parents . They do not even know the marriage thing and the responsibilities that come with it . There's no need to moan about it but rather use common sense and the free thinking faculties granted by the same God . Change is constant , there's no need to remain stuck in old times forever . The requirements of today's world are vastly different than that of the past .

@Talon Do you have time ? Come on Gmail .


By that logic we are not Muslims by our own choice because we became Muslims before we got the ability to make choices and it was decision of our parent to give adhan in our ears and to make us Muslims..no?

When you become baligh in Islam? when you are told to offer prayers and do fasting and all others religious obligations?

Problem is Islam or its teaching/ruling are same for all time and ages and its not gonna change with time. We may have change in ourselves and we may bring change in Islam according to it which is happening now. we may also have selective Islam in our lives by adopting things which we like and giving up those which we dont but Islam will allow men to marry four times no matter what age we are living and Islam will ask you to keep fasting no matter what age...Islam would recommend you same punishment for all ages etc etc . Europeans laws got change but Islamic laws will stay constant.

I would tell you again that we are not discussing our personal opinions about when people should or can marry
 
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By that logic that we are not Muslims by our own choice because we became Muslims before we got the ability to make choices and it was decision of our parent to give adhan in our ears and to make us Muslims..no?

That depends , if we can differentiate between religion and marriage in which the sole criteria isn't going to be that we are supposed to live with both , all our life . That will be a very sad excuse for outsourcing all our choices to our parents or someone else . The ability to not change with the requirement of the time and era , is what I believe is one of the major reason for Muslim downfall . Too much emphasis on past actions and past glory , we find nothing to work for in present for prosperous future . Its about we reinstate slavery too , for it existed during the times of Prophet . I will rest my case here , mate .
 
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That depends , if we can differentiate between religion and marriage in which the sole criteria isn't going to be that we are supposed to live with both , all our life . That will be a very sad excuse for outsourcing all our choices to our parents or someone else . The ability to not change with the requirement of the time and era , is what I believe is one of the major reason for Muslim downfall . Too much emphasis on past actions and past glory , we find nothing to work for in present for prosperous future . Its about we reinstate slavery too , for it existed during the times of Prophet . I will rest my case here , mate .
Why Muslim got downfall is different topic which need plenty of debate but it has less to do with having marriage at certain age. Religious morals and laws are absolute which never change with time. Secur i understand your point and i have very much same opinion but we were discussing the laws of Islam about when Muslims can marry. what we think is one thing but what Islam allow another :)
 
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1stly, not every 9 yr old attains puberty...there is a range some say it can be as early as 7 (read in the news 1 case so far of 7yr old becoming a mom then again could be hoax as it was more like a tabloid) but 9 (is confirmed that some can have it at 9) and it can go as late as 16 (very few mostly in the West they start at 13 hence prob why they see 9 as absurd)

But marriage is not really a game..it comes with responsibilities heck men in todays world run from that word and some want 9 yr old to carry the burden? Its absurd!!

Her body may be child bearing but the psychology that comes with caring for the child when she herself is a child is not right...

As for Hadrat Aisha...well, back then we also have heard of 9 yr old Queens soo I guess mental maturity has decreased exponentially! From a 9yr old inventor/ ruler to a 9yr old bimbo in today's world is not comparable!

You can even look at medieval girls:


I dont hear anyone fainting over these marriages as much as they do over Hadrat Aisha R.A...

That was quoted to show the mental age of back then....

In todays world a 6 yr old only wants an Ipad...a 15 yr old just wants to be Miss popular at school....soo I doubt they have the maturity of handling a husband let alone a baby growing inside them...followed by delivery and all....no matter how "modern" medicine is delivery is still something that is not only painful but dangerous!

Well for all we know the translators might put it puberty but like I have shown you above there have been young women married, young women warriors hack we even have 21 yr old Samina baig climbing Everest... so if nurtured properly yes but not practical in todays society!

6 year old wantin ipads and 15 year old being miss popular is normal. That is what they're supposed to do. Not be mature, not be sensible but being kids and teenagers. I dont care about medievel ages cz that isnt Islam. Frankly we have no reason to believe a 9 year old queen would be more sensible than an 18 year old queen. There have been 1 year old kings aswell, does it mean better kings? :)

Mental maturity has increased over the years not decreased, scientifically proven. Hazrat Yesha RAA hasnt been confirmed to be 9 or 19. Zaeef hdith it is, so i was just using the worst case scenario. Allah my have given the wisdom to her but still negate the fact that marriage to girls just hitting puberty is abhorrent by todays standards( or any for that matter). Which is the crux of this law. Old men lusting for girls from poor parents. This shit is legalizing pedophilia. If a couple of this kind enters US, instant jail. And for the better.

Dont they have anything better t do, maybe raise their voices against TTP?
 
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Why Muslim got downfall is different topic which need plenty of debate but it has less to do with having marriage at certain age. Religious morals and laws are absolute which never change with time. Secur i understand your point and i have very much same opinion but we were discussing the laws of Islam about when Muslims can marry. what we think is one thing but what Islam allow another :)

Of course , I am not implying that Muslim downfall has to do with marriageable age . Mate , I believe they can and should adapt with time , otherwise they are outdated , they can remain same in principle if needed . But the same form is simply incompatible and unacceptable in my opinion .
 
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6 year old wantin ipads and 15 year old being miss popular is normal. That is what they're supposed to do. Not be mature, not be sensible but being kids and teenagers. I dont care about medievel ages cz that isnt Islam. Frankly we have no reason to believe a 9 year old queen would be more sensible than an 18 year old queen. There have been 1 year old kings aswell, does it mean better kings? :)

Mental maturity has increased over the years not decreased, scientifically proven. Hazrat Yesha RAA hasnt been confirmed to be 9 or 19. Zaeef hdith it is, so i was just using the worst case scenario. Allah my have given the wisdom to her but still negate the fact that marriage to girls just hitting puberty is abhorrent by todays standards( or any for that matter). Which is the crux of this law. Old men lusting for girls from poor parents. This shit is legalizing pedophilia. If a couple of this kind enters US, instant jail. And for the better.

Dont they have anything better t do, maybe raise their voices against TTP?

I am not talking about being better or not... I was giving examples its not impossible!

I agree with it being wrong...Did you even read my whole post?

I said there have been instances where responsibility has hit girls a little early and made them Queens...some being warriors others inventors....

As for being a kid and teenager...there is nothing wrong...but again back to my initial statement...Women long time back hit mature thinking faster...now responsibility sounds soo cruel...its easier to play (couple love) around then get settled in (married)...

Now a days everything is complex....to get married you need to check bank balance, if he can afford this and that...back then as long as he is from a decent family the daughter was given away...so there is alot of differences not to forget that back then girls were specifically brought up for marriage (literally on that in mind groom hunting) while in todays world there is much more to do like study, work and achieve a goal and what not...

I do not like the law 1 bit coz like I said and you repeated horny old men would come seeking young girls!
 
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Of course , I am not implying that Muslim downfall has to do with marriageable age . Mate , I believe they can and should adapt with time , otherwise they are outdated , they can remain same in principle if needed . But the same form is simply incompatible .
We should request/convince God through angels to make new version of Quran for us that should be compatible with modern secular values and principles with present edition of right or wrong until then we have no other option..its either take it or leave it :D Btw what you will request when marriage should be allow considering in mind that God will never let you have a pre-martial affairs or any other opportunity to fulfill your sexual desires ? :D
 
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We should request/convince God through angels to make new version of Quran for us that should be compatible with modern secular values and principles with present edition of right or wrong until then we have no other option..its either take it or leave it :D Btw what you will request when marriage should be allow considering in mind that God will never let you have a pre-martial affairs or any other opportunity to fulfill your sexual desires ? :D

Not really , just interpret it keeping the current times and requirements in mind too , that will suffice for everyone , mate . I didn't say a word about it , now did I ? :D
 
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I am not talking about being better or not... I was giving examples its not impossible!

I agree with it being wrong...Did you even read my whole post?

I said there have been instances where responsibility has hit girls a little early and made them Queens...some being warriors others inventors....

As for being a kid and teenager...there is nothing wrong...but again back to my initial statement...Women long time back hit mature thinking faster...now responsibility sounds soo cruel...its easier to play (couple love) around then get settled in (married)...

Now a days everything is complex....to get married you need to check bank balance, if he can afford this and that...back then as long as he is from a decent family the daughter was given away...so there is alot of differences not to forget that back then girls were specifically brought up for marriage (literally on that in mind groom hunting) while in todays world there is much more to do like study, work and achieve a goal and what not...

I do not like the law 1 bit coz like I said and you repeated horny old men would come seeking young girls!

I think kids get more mature and smart in modern times than they were in past..now we have tv, internet, education, media and all sort of information available by few clicks of mouse and I have seen that many people are single at the age of 35 as they are looking for time when they will settle in life and guess what they will never settle ..sometime no matter what you earn is not enough :)

Not really , just interpret it keeping the current times and requirements in mind too , that will suffice for everyone , mate . I didn't say a word about it , now did I ? :D
yaar if we interpret Quran for 17 s century it will be different than for 19s or 20s or 21s century..society evolve in every century..what is right today may be wrong tomorrow after say a few century..chaloo kohee nhi jane doo :D
 
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yaar if we interpret Quran for 17 s century it will be different than for 19s or 20s or 21s century..society evolve in every century..what is right today may be wrong tomorrow after say a few century..chaloo kohee nhi jane doo :D

No , mate . Things can remain same in principle . Leave it , though :)
 
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We all know how things will work,Someone from rich family will convinvce someone from a poor family to marry off his 12 year old daughter for money and the girls life will be devastated.

Then we must work to ensure that our society follows moral values. Actually, in an ideal Shariat (Islamic) society, there would not be any poor desperate enough to marry off his/her young daughter. Not just that, Islam lays great emphasis on the well being of the child and his/her upbringing; all parents will be judged on the matter.
 
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Mashallah. All the pedophiles of the world will now line up at Pakistani embassies to apply for permanent residence.
 
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So basically , trying to amend a law which prohibits the marriage of underage girls and hence controls to some extent , the exploitation of the opposite gender mostly in the name of the religion and culture , disregarding the issues of maturity and the literacy and health consequences of young age pregnancy and both physiological effects on such girls is a correct demand of the otherwise silent on FAR FAR more important matters CII ? Are you sure about that ? Where's the historical and societal contextualization here ?

Look, the matter of silence, of the so called CII, on certain matters, may be disputable on its own. However, if there is no such binding in the religion as to the age of the girl then our laws should not offer any such bindings either. In Islam, any girl who comes of age, may be married. The Government, may consider an aptitude test for girls/boys to test their preparedness for such a journey, in addition to certain other parameters, but defining laws contrary to Islam is simply not acceptable.



But this " dis honor " is a wonderful versatile word used across this great country to kill/torture/persecute girls and women under the pretext that have somehow brought shame on the family . If we really need to tell you , how many girls and women have been declared " kari " or to be killed , those who have been tortured to hell , those who have married to the Holy Book , those who have thrown acid on their face , those who have been forcibly married to someone by the Jirga/Panchayat e.t.c. using the same logic you are stating here , then we are having a futile discussion . Were those girls and women tried under any law , even the religious one ? Or were they punished on a mere " accusation " by their family/tribe ? Under what law of the land were they punished ? Only a person who's not in his right mind will believe or want others to believe that in an overwhelmingly astronomical number of cases , it was always girls and women's fault and mistake which led to their death mostly , resulted in their injury/trauma or made their life hell . Obviously , you have gone far overboard in rationalizing the reality by religious interpretations . Somehow , even your mind signed off when you saw the word " Islam " .

Now you are confusing laws with lawlessness and non implementation of laws. You are confusing yourself, mostly because you, along with many many others, are so tired of this society that has failed us collectively as in its failure to safeguard our basic rights and freedom. However, does that non implementation mean that we introduce new, stringent laws? Or should we rather concentrate on implementation of the existing laws?

Your examples above of women being declared kari or victims of torture, forced marriage, acid attack etc., are born out of frustration because the culprits were not brought to justice. Had our system been effective enough, we would have prevented all those illegal and immoral activities against our women. Those activities will continue regardless of introduction of laws so long as implementation is absent.



The question arises then , why not marry the girls as soon they are born ? Why even wait for puberty as per these Mullahs ? While you are at it , answer me , what 9/12/14 year old immature boy/girl is going to refuse his/her parents choice ? What choice does he/she have ? What is his/her opinion worth even in that little age ? Obviously , he/she would have no say in already done deal . We have previously seen the results of that in Pakistan , a 7 year old girl being wed to a 12 year boy recently and rich people purchasing " poor " girls from village , whom their parents sell because they aren't able to feed them or give them education or . I am starting to think that the sole purpose of coming in this world is to marry and breed children like rabbits . Educations , health and everything else can take a hike ! After all , there's a reason why there is a legal age for marrying , which whilst not necessarily being accurate , provides a certain safeguard by not allowing parents/guardians/society to easily exploit the daughters of Eve.

Waiting for puberty is not the collective agreement of Mullahs but rather the instructions of Islam. And by consent, I meant of an adult and not a child. But, is age the only measure of maturity? Even if it is so, then why not set the minimum age at 21, when a person is legally allowed to vote....or 32 when a person is legally eligible to be the PM (I believe) etc.??



What Islamic law first of all ? Did the religion specify a certain age for marriage ? Did it ask you to not educate or wait for the girl to mature , but just marry her and be free from all cares ? Are you too stuck in your utopia - the ideal world ? Maybe , you will make better arguments when you speak whilst having the ground realities in mind . Laws are made and enforced keeping the requirements of the era and society and specially the ground realities in mind , the religion says the same , otherwise why not allow slavery today too , after all the Prophet tolerated it for quite sometime ? .

Islam has not given you an age, as per my knowledge, however it has defined coming of age with manses for a girl.

And when was slavery abolished? As per my knowledge, slavery was never abolished as in the spoils of war.
 
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Dont they have anything better t do, maybe raise their voices against TTP?

i wonder the same dont they have any thing better to do , all these pedo fcks can think about is under age girls for their sick pleasures , what about science and technology , socio econimic program. Any thing which serves the community than this sick whacko bull$hit
 
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