Pakistani laws prohibiting underage marriage un-Islamic: CII

[Mav3rick]

We know for a fact how these rulings are abused in Pakistan.

Rich, 70 year old, men will "convince" poor parents to wed their 12 year old daughter to them. And, thanks to the mullah, these old men don't even need "permission" from their current wives.

To ignore these realities is unwise.

As for "Islamic" laws, I don't even want to get into that, regardless of what fatwa anyone issues. Islam also tolerated (but discouraged) slavery, because it was integral to the society's economic fabric in those days. It doesn't mean that we have to legalize slavery today.

One has to use common sense and discard tribal customs which have no relevance in modern society.

Your last line is the most important, one has to use common sense, discard tribal customs which have no relevance to society but above all, we must embrace our religion and the constitution of Allah and set it as the defining path of our society in general.

But are they wrong strictly in the religious context?

No, they are not.

 

[Developereo]

Your last line is the most important, one has to use common sense, discard tribal customs which have no relevance to society but above all, we must embrace our religion and the constitution of Allah and set it as the defining path of our society in general.

Islam tells us to protect the rights of those who can't defend themselves.

Can a 12 year old girl defend herself if a rich, 70 year old man forces her parents to wed her?

In an ideal world, these things wouldn't happen, but we know we don't live in an ideal world. We know what happens in Pakistan. It is our duty as true Muslims, and it is the duty of the government of Pakistan, to protect the rights of poor girls from exploitation.

 

[Secur]

Look, the matter of silence, of the so called CII, on certain matters, may be disputable on its own. However, if there is no such binding in the religion as to the age of the girl then our laws should not offer any such bindings either. In Islam, any girl who comes of age, may be married. The Government, may consider an aptitude test for girls/boys to test their preparedness for such a journey, in addition to certain other parameters, but defining laws contrary to Islam is simply not acceptable.

Now you are confusing laws with lawlessness and non implementation of laws. You are confusing yourself, mostly because you, along with many many others, are so tired of this society that has failed us collectively as in its failure to safeguard our basic rights and freedom. However, does that non implementation mean that we introduce new, stringent laws? Or should we rather concentrate on implementation of the existing laws?

Your examples above of women being declared kari or victims of torture, forced marriage, acid attack etc., are born out of frustration because the culprits were not brought to justice. Had our system been effective enough, we would have prevented all those illegal and immoral activities against our women. Those activities will continue regardless of introduction of laws so long as implementation is absent.

Waiting for puberty is not the collective agreement of Mullahs but rather the instructions of Islam. And by consent, I meant of an adult and not a child. But, is age the only measure of maturity? Even if it is so, then why not set the minimum age at 21, when a person is legally allowed to vote....or 32 when a person is legally eligible to be the PM (I believe) etc.??

Islam has not given you an age, as per my knowledge, however it has defined coming of age with manses for a girl.

And when was slavery abolished? As per my knowledge, slavery was never abolished as in the spoils of war.

Look deep within , now is the law prohibiting the marriage of underage girls , the pressing problem of this society and thus by extension country ? What exactly was the need to create another controversy in these difficult and testing times ? Do we really not have enough problems ? What is amazing that CII fails to report or even present its recommendations on matters/problems far more important and currently plaguing the nation , however suddenly it remembers that a law made to safeguard the daughters of Eve against Lust , abuse and near-slavery is contrary to the religion ? Is the Mullah brigade once again trying to take advantage of the new found leniency of Govt because of ongoing peace talks ? The matter isn't as simple as it seems to many . Furthermore , the same CII forgot , conveniently of course , that the laws to be made and enforced are always put to scrutiny with respect to time , era and requirement , that again is something the same religion advises you to . Precisely , the reason why the prohibition for Alcohol didn't come in one go . People could get married in younger age in the medieval times , because they didn't exactly have much to do . The same isn't true today , times have changed vastly . Today , the age they want for marriage is the age when boys and girls are getting education , exploring the world and looking for opportunities . An Aptitude test and that too Govt sponsored ? You must be kidding me .

I am not confusing anything , you forgot with ease there that its not the girl/women fault at an overwhelming majority of the time in those cases where the people take the law into their hand and kill/torture/abuse them because of allegations or the order of the Jirga . There's no law of the land that will allow you to do so . You simply focused on the " dishonor " thing and the religious punishments for illicit relations and considered it all done , no information provided on what is actually happening on the ground . Next , you fail to recognize the weaknesses in the tribal/rural cultures , their male chauvinist mindsets and stone age traditions are a big problem in enforcing these laws . I know the weaknesses of law enforcement and justice system of Pakistan . Another important reason why we mustn't end the " legal age " for marriage , the exploitation for young girls is happening without that even today , on a large scale . Girls being wed to people aging 45+ in many cases or being given to 5-6 years old boys - both of whom cant possible be expected to know anything about marriage . The reality on ground cant be forgotten whilst enacting these laws . Whats the obsession to marry , I mean ? Are they intellectually mature enough ? What is the opinion/permission/consent of such young children worth ? Is it to be taken seriously somehow ?

The laws are still implemented to certain extent , not properly , but implemented nonetheless . According to your logic , we must focus on enforcing the previous ones rather than trying to create new or amend previous ones . If the situation on ground is worst because of tribal/rural cultures and traditions , even after the enaction and enforcement of the laws , then it is more important than ever not to allow further loopholes and weaknesses and open the door wide open for this to happen legally .

Pakistan: “Families Marry their Sons to the Young Girls to Gain a Child Servant” | FrontPage Magazine
Aisha, 18: “I got married when I was just 10. “At the time of the marriage, my husband was a school student, just 16 years old. “The marriage was arranged by family, it was not a forced marriage – but I was a little girl at the time, I did not know the meaning of marriage and accepted it because I did not know any better. My husband was really harsh with me because of the fact that I did not know what a marriage was, and what the duties of a wife were. “He wanted a sexual relationship but I did not even know what that was at the time, and so he started beating me to get it. “

Take it out of the context and it will appear anyway you want it to be - a vital truth that is . How will you obtain consent from people under 16 seriously - the lower most value of maturity taken from scientific studies ? Do they even know what are they consenting to ? Are they ready for the challenges and responsibilities ahead ? I asked a simple question , mate , whilst answering you that the legal age ISN'T meant to be accurate , it is however put in place to provide certain safeguards against abuse and exploitation . Why even wait for puberty which by no means , is an indicator of maturity ? Marry them as soon as they are born , why not ? . Will you trust a <8/9/10/12/14 year old girl with your financial matters by the same voting logic ? The problem arises because 1) Such young children aren't making a free choice by themselves - they are merely agreeing to their parent's because they have no other choice , they cant be expected to go against their parents as the previous history of young age marriages show 2) Such young children cant possibly be expected to know about the meaning of marriage and what is it all about . 3) Extremely major risks often fatal associated with pregnancy at such a young age - a major cause of death again in this great nation even today . 4) Major hurdles with their education and progress in the society if they are given BIG responsibilities in this little age , especially in the urban centers and today even the rural ones . Should we then just shut off our eyes and say " YES " because of certain religious interpretations ?

A women must be consulted and get her permission to make the marriage valid (REF:Mishakat al Masabiah, translation by James Robson, Vol. I, p.665).

When does a girl becomes a women if I may ask ? When is she expected to give proper permission ? Surely , not in the young adolescent ages .

“And make not over your property (property of the orphan), which Allah had made a (means of) support for you, to the weak of understanding, and maintain them out of it, clothe them and give them good education. And test them until they reach the age of marriage. Then if you find them maturity of intellect, make over them their property……” (Qur’an 4:5-6).

The Qur’anic verse demands meticulous proof of their intellectual and physical maturity by objective test results before the age of marriage in order to entrust their property to them.

True that Islam hasn't given you an exact age , but left it to you with regards to times , requirements and societal conditions which are in no way favorable by any chance to marry young children any longer . Does the same religion not advise you to use your own thinking faculties too ? Why is then , despite all evidence to the contrary , people will say " Yes " to a Mullah influenced interpretation with no practical and logical explanation ?

Forget I asked about slavery , though it was abolished a very long time ago from now . Not even allowed with the prisoners of wars today .

Then we must work to ensure that our society follows moral values. Actually, in an ideal Shariat (Islamic) society, there would not be any poor desperate enough to marry off his/her young daughter. Not just that, Islam lays great emphasis on the well being of the child and his/her upbringing; all parents will be judged on the matter.

Please come out of the ideal world and step into the one , that exists today . The real world is extremely different than the one that you have in mind .

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Muslims are the target of all the ridicule and insults over the age of Hazrat Aysha when she was married with Prophet Muhammad PBUH, there only one person in history who mentioned her age and he himself has been blamed for inaccuracies.

Hazrat Aysha was an articulate learned lady with taste for poetry as well and that all happened before marriage. there is an article with references that suggests her age could have been between 18 to 19 when she was married but the damage has been already done

the Islam hater refuse to accept it and will continue to mock Muhammad PBUH and the brain dead mullah will also lack the basic skills of logic and understanding to check the historical background of the narrator Hasham who is primarily quoted for Aysha R.A age.

Historian Ibn Ishaq has mentioned the names of the people who were among the first who converted to Islam while in Mecca and Abu Bakr R.A's little daughter is also mentioned as one of them. had she been only 6 at her marriage then by this account she shouldnt have been even born then.


Of Aisha’s age at marriage - DAWN.COM


CII is a bunch of ignorant idiots and should be sent to tribal areas to live with taliban

CII can jump in the arabian sea. These fat rats don't dare speak against the mass murder by terrorists but speak on things that don't matter.

today I am at peace
Of Aisha’s age at marriage - DAWN.COM

 

[iPhone]

So, have they changed the law or is it just a discussion?

Cuz I can't believe for a minute that Pakistani society is gonna stand for it. Try as they might these asshole mullahs but our society has continuesly rejected them.

Mullahs have a small but effective and vocal following but no matter what mainstream will still reject them. These mullahs have had their run soon enough they'll be put back into their place.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Simple - If you use your wisdom/mind than it's clear that marriage is not just about fcuking where puberty should be the only criteria.

When I said marriage is all about f**king ? It is also not my criteria but criteria of Islam who give this permission to Muslims to marry at any age after reaching the age of puberty which is defined by "menarche" or first period in case of girls. Marriage is not all about sex although procreation and satisfy your natural instinct (in legal way) is one of its purpose. To satisfy your emotional needs aka getting life partner, company to kill your loneliness could be another. Marriage is not even fard but its recommended after you reach the puberty and feel that you cannot control your sexual desires by staying within the limits( no zina, no ****, no masturbation, etc) set by Islam.

Concept of morality of Islam is not same as those of western. It don't make sense to judge Islamic laws or rules of marriage in context of modern values or standards, for example UK girls had no rights of vote until 1918/1928 and women and all their property belong to their husband after marriage but now it has been changed in 20 century but religious rules and law don't change or evolve for every century. Modern standards have changed in every culture so what was practiced then is no longer culturally acceptable but when Islam was introduced then these laws and rules were considered revolutionary. Islam was a little ahead of the curve at that time by insisting that wives had the right to say no and a right to an income even after divorce. It reversed the tradition of the time. Instead of the woman's family paying a dowry to find a wealthy husband, Islam insisted that it was the man who give the dowry to the woman. At the time, it was one of the few religions that expressly prohibited pedophilia by insisting on proof of puberty (rather than just proof of virginity). The wife had the right to divorce if the guy doesn't pay support. Whatever money the wife earned is her property alone and off limits to the husband. Pedophilia was explicitly prohibited and carries the death penalty there.

Now you cannot make amendment in religion according to common practice or laws of present age by using your common sense or wisdom. Our common sense might say that women should have time to complete their master degree and then set up their career and then think about marriage or kids once they settle after reaching the age of 25 or above and we have this option available to marry at age of 30 even though lifespan is short these days but you cannot say that if some girls marry at age of 16 then their marriage would be illegal according to Islam. Islam don't put any financial responsibilities on their s shoulder and its not illegal to marry at early age as long as you are are not kid

I don't know why we are making big fuss over this issues when we still have laws in European/African countries who allow the marriage of 15/16 year with court or parent consent. Some south american countries for example Bolivia and Paraguay allow marriage of 14 year. To give permission of something is one thing but for people to go for it is another. How many people are getting marry at age of 18 even if it is allowed? I don't see much

 

[Sugarcane]

When I said marriage is all about f**king ? It is also not my criteria but criteria of Islam who give this permission to Muslims to marry at any age after reaching the age of puberty which is defined by "menarche" or first period in case of girls. Marriage is not all about sex although procreation and satisfy your natural instinct (in legal way) is one of its purpose. To satisfy your emotional needs aka getting life partner, company to kill your loneliness could be another. Marriage is not even fard but its recommended after you reach the puberty and feel that you cannot control your sexual desires by staying within the limits( no zina, no ****, no masturbation, etc) set by Islam.

Concept of morality of Islam is not same as those of western. It don't make sense to judge Islamic laws or rules of marriage in context of modern values or standards, for example UK girls had no rights of vote until 1918/1928 and women and all their property belong to their husband after marriage but now it has been changed in 20 century but religious rules and law don't change or evolve for every century. Modern standards have changed in every culture so what was practiced then is no longer culturally acceptable but when Islam was introduced then these laws and rules were considered revolutionary. Islam was a little ahead of the curve at that time by insisting that wives had the right to say no and a right to an income even after divorce. It reversed the tradition of the time. Instead of the woman's family paying a dowry to find a wealthy husband, Islam insisted that it was the man who give the dowry to the woman. At the time, it was one of the few religions that expressly prohibited pedophilia by insisting on proof of puberty (rather than just proof of virginity). The wife had the right to divorce if the guy doesn't pay support. Whatever money the wife earned is her property alone and off limits to the husband. Pedophilia was explicitly prohibited and carries the death penalty there.

Now you cannot make amendment in religion according to common practice or laws of present age by using your common sense or wisdom. Our common sense might say that women should have time to complete their master degree and then set up their career and then think about marriage or kids once they settle after reaching the age of 25 or above and we have this option available to marry at age of 30 even though lifespan is short these days but you cannot say that if some girls marry at age of 16 then their marriage would be illegal according to Islam. Islam don't put any financial responsibilities on their s shoulder and its not illegal to marry at early age as long as you are are not kid

I don't know why we are making big fuss over this issues when we still have laws in European/African countries who allow the marriage of 15/16 year with court or parent consent. Some south american countries for example Bolivia and Paraguay allow marriage of 14 year. To give permission of something is one thing but for people to go for it is another. How many people are getting marry at age of 18 even if it is allowed? I don't see much

Well with your definition, Islam may have been revolutionary in 7th century, but if it's not flexible and don't allow to make laws for 21st century requirements than it's simple outdated as we are not in 7th century anymore.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Well with your definition, Islam may have been revolutionary in 7th century, but if it's not flexible and don't allow to make laws for 21st century requirements than it's simple outdated as we are not in 7th century anymore.

You have choice to not follow it if you feel its out dated. Its better to not follow it than to make amendment according to our desires or needs. We cannot legalize pre-martial affairs, wine, prostitution,gambling, interest etc and make it part of Islam because it considered norm in present society

 

[M. Sarmad]

You have choice to not follow it if you feel its out dated. Its better to not follow it than to make amendment according to our desires or needs. We cannot legalize pre-martial affairs, wine, prostitution,gambling, interest etc and make it part of Islam because it considered norm in present society

Bhai then why do you claim that Islam is a religion for all times when you are not ready to give up Hadith based medieval practices ??

There is a difference b/w Arab tribalism and Islam

 

[IamBengali]

When Mullahs are in charge to make decision on Islam you don't need enemies.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Bhai then why do you claim that Islam is a religion for all times when you are not ready to give up Hadith based medieval practices ??

There is a difference b/w Arab tribalism and Islam

I don't think we both have same opinion regarding hadits because i feel that eventhough we have some weak or unauthentic hadits but that don't mean that all hadits are false/invalid and we should reject them. I never said Arab culture is Islam or vice versa.

I still claim that Islam is for all time and ages and it never evolve or change with time or people . I was just saying that those who think Islamic laws/rules/ practices are outdated should give up Islam instead of twisting or molding Islam according to modern standard of right or wrong because guess what we will have different concepts of right or wrong in next century. We all know how laws were changed quickly from 18/19 century to 20/21 century. Who would have thought that gay marriage would be legal when they were in 18/19 century?

 

[M. Sarmad]

I don't think we both have same opinion regarding hadits because i feel that eventhough we have some weak or unauthentic hadits but that don't mean that all hadits are false/invalid and we should reject them. I never said Arab culture is Islam or vice versa.

I still claim that Islam is for all time and ages and it never evolve or change with time or people . I was just saying that those who think Islamic laws/rules/ practices are outdated should give up Islam instead of twisting or molding Islam according to modern standard of right or wrong because guess what we will have different concepts of right or wrong in next century. We all know how laws were changed quickly from 18/19 century to 20/21 century. Who would have thought that gay marriage would be legal when they were in 18/19 century?

I think we had a discussion on this earlier on . I do not reject Hadith completely , I agree with Iqbal`s view ;" Hadith should not be a source of Islamic law" (or at least there should be a very strict criteria for that)

Quranic laws are perfect and they are compatible with the modern world

 

[Informant]

You have choice to not follow it if you feel its out dated. Its better to not follow it than to make amendment according to our desires or needs. We cannot legalize pre-martial affairs, wine, prostitution,gambling, interest etc and make it part of Islam because it considered norm in present society

HUGE FUCKING FALLACY. When and hows is making underage marriage illegal comparable with prostitution, gambling and other vices. No one is asking to legalize those, infact we oppose those AND UNDERAGE MARRIAGES which is legalizing the possibilities of pedophilia.

Jesus man, you all over the place. Red herrings galore along with others.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

I think we had a discussion on this earlier on . I do not reject Hadith completely , I agree with Iqbal`s view ;" Hadith should not be a source of Islamic law" (or at least there should be a very strict criteria for that)

Quranic laws are perfect and they are compatible with the modern world

Again i slightly disagree there because we need some help from hadiths as well when we make Islamic law even though Quran remain our primary and major source..well its different discussion

HUGE FUCKING FALLACY. When and hows is making underage marriage illegal comparable with prostitution, gambling and other vices. No one is asking to legalize those, infact we oppose those AND UNDERAGE MARRIAGES which is legalizing the possibilities of pedophilia.

Jesus man, you all over the place. Red herrings galore along with others.

Calm down kid. Read all again with your calm head with proper context ..no point of yelling at me for no reason

 

[Sugarcane]

You have choice to not follow it if you feel its out dated. Its better to not follow it than to make amendment according to our desires or needs. We cannot legalize pre-martial affairs, wine, prostitution,gambling, interest etc and make it part of Islam because it considered norm in present society

Well following mullahism and following Islam is two different things, Quran is book of guidance not laws (only couple of clear cut laws are given which can't be changed), and as per guidance given you can make any laws you see fit for your society and era, below verses has been already quoted in this thread again quoting -

[006:152] And come not nigh to the orphan's property, except to improve it, until he attain the age of full strength; give measure and weight with (full) justice;- no burden do We place on any soul, but that which it can bear;- whenever ye speak, speak justly, even if a near relative is concerned; and fulfil the covenant of God: thus doth He command you, that ye may remember.

[017:034] Come not nigh to the orphan's property except to improve it, until he attains the age of full strength; and fulfil (every) engagement, for (every) engagement will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).

Read the blue part, if that's the criteria for handing over property than how there can be that much easy criteria for marriage which is commitment for whole life, and future generation. In 7th century education of girl was not important but today is.

Islam don't restrict you to make laws for betterment of society provided it's as per the guidance given in Quran. But if you want to make religion difficult for people than yeah force over them the tribal customs of 7th century.

Well for a Muslim it doesn't matter that alcohol, prostitution, gambling, interest etc. is legalized or not, If he/she is true with his/her faith than he/she will stay away because God has forbidden these things, but if he/she don't want to stay away than whatever laws you make will not stop him/her.