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Pakistani laws prohibiting underage marriage un-Islamic: CII

Well following mullahism and following Islam is two different things, Quran is book of guidance not laws (only couple of clear cut laws are given which can't be changed), and as per guidance given you can make any laws you see fit for your society and era, below verses has been already quoted in this thread again quoting -

[006:152] And come not nigh to the orphan's property, except to improve it, until he attain the age of full strength; give measure and weight with (full) justice;- no burden do We place on any soul, but that which it can bear;- whenever ye speak, speak justly, even if a near relative is concerned; and fulfil the covenant of God: thus doth He command you, that ye may remember.

[017:034] Come not nigh to the orphan's property except to improve it, until he attains the age of full strength; and fulfil (every) engagement, for (every) engagement will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).

Read the blue part, if that's the criteria for handing over property than how there can be that much easy criteria for marriage which is commitment for whole life, and future of next generation. In 7th century girl of education was not important but today is.

Islam don't restrict you to make laws for betterment of society provided it's as per the guidance given in Quran. But if you want to make religion difficult for people than yeah force over them the tribal customs of 7th century.

Well for a Muslim it doesn't matter that alcohol, prostitution, gambling, interest etc. is legalized or not, If he/she is true with his/her faith than he/she will stay away because God has forbidden these things, but if he/she don't want to stay away than whatever laws you make will not stop him/her.


I was not even talking about Mullahism. Leave my understanding of Islam aside for a moment. No one answer my questions that what Islam say when a Muslim girl or guy can marry? Is Islam set any age for marriage or leave it for individuals to marry at any age as long as they cross the age of puberty ? Give me criteria of Islam or Islamic jurisprudence (Fiqh) not your personal perception. What is underage according to Islam?
 
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Again i slightly disagree there because we need some help from hadiths as well when we make Islamic law even though Quran remain our primary and major source..well its different discussion

You can choose to follow Mullahs` version of Islam if you want , My point was "Quranic laws are compatible with the modern world"

A few examples may be :

Jizya has no support from Quran
Jihad is a defensive war only
A woman can lead a mixed gender congregation
You can not possess "slave girls"
Evolution theory is not opposed by Quran (rather it is supported)
Domestic violence is not allowed
Democracy is not unIslamic ...........
............

I was not even talking about Mullahism. Leave my understanding of Islam aside for a moment. No one answer my questions that what Islam say when a Muslim girl or guy can marry? Is Islam set any age for marriage or leave it for individuals to marry at any age as long as they cross the age of puberty ? Give me criteria of Islam or Islamic jurisprudence (Fiqh) not your personal perception. What is underage according to Islam?

A girl starts out being a child طفلة. This is further proven in Noble Verses 22:5 and 40:67 above (طفلا child). Then she becomes a fataat فتاة , which is what فتياتكم (your young ladies) is derived from in Noble Verse 4:25.

Clearly, Allah Almighty never allowed marriage with a طفلة child!


What is the minimum age for marriage in the Holy Quran?
 
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You can choose to follow Mullahs` version of Islam if you want , My point was "Quranic laws are compatible with modern world"

A few examples may be :

Jizya has no support from Quran
Jihad is a defensive war only
A woman can lead a mixed gender congregation
You can not possess "slave girls"
Evolution theory is not opposed by Quran (rather it is supported)
Domestic violence is not allowed
Democracy is not unIslamic ...........
............

No i dont follow any mullah. I follow Islam according to my understanding and off course i cannot even read arabic and rely on people who make translation in English or Urdu. whatever you quote in reference to prove your point is also written by some men as we dont get any direct direction from God . I dont think any sane guy will approve domestic violence or slave women and jihad and qatal are two different things and qatal is of course defensive ..Taxes is not mention in Quran but you need taxes to run the states and Quran is not scientfic book to confirm scientific theories..its more about history book of lives of previous prophets and moral code about how to live your life

...........
............A girl starts out being a child طفلة. This is further proven in Noble Verses 22:5 and 40:67 above (طفلا child). Then she becomes a fataat فتاة , which is what فتياتكم (your young ladies) is derived from in Noble Verse 4:25.

Clearly, Allah Almighty never allowed marriage with a طفلة child!


What is the minimum age for marriage in the Holy Quran?



so Islam say you are child even after reaching puberty and having first period? This is the answer i am looking for

Btw this site defended the article of answering-Christianity by saying that Mary was also 12 when she married 99-year old Joseph.

read their opinions as well

Qur'an Contradiction: Is there a minimum age for marriage?
 
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I dont think any sane guy will approve domestic violence or slave women

Mullahs do prove them Halaal !! based on Hadith interpretations


Taxes is not mention in Quran but you need taxes to run the states

Who told you that ?? Allah tells us to give in charity/tax everything what we have in excess (to our needs) in Quran .
Allah says in Quran that in our wealth is the share of those who ask and those who were prevented from asking(for some reason) . Then Allah says in Quran that give tidings of painful punishment to those who hoard gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah


Quran is not scientfic book to confirm scientific theories..its more about history book of lives of previous prophets and moral code about how to live your life

Allah says in Quran that it is perfect and nothing has been left out of it and you need no book of hadith/guidance besides it . . Mullahs say Quran is imperfect and we need other sources besides quran !!

so Islam say you are child even after reaching puberty and having first period? This is the answer i am looking for
Btw this site defended the article of answering-Christianity by saying that Mary was also 12 when she married 99-year old Joseph.
read their opinions as well

That was in reply to question by some christian . Did you not get your answer from the article ??? Quran clearly forbids child marriage . And the questions that christians have raised are based on so called Sahih Hadith !! Hope you get it now !! Hadith is conjecture , Quran alone is more than enough !!
 
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Mullahs do prove them Halaal !! based on Hadith interpretations
Who told you that ?? Allah tells us to give in charity/tax everything what we have in excess (to our needs) in Quran .
Allah says in Quran that in our wealth is the share of those who ask and those who were prevented from asking(for some reason) . Then Allah says in Quran that give tidings of painful punishment to those who hoard gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah
Jaziya was for non muslim who dont pay zakat. Rich guy will be more happy to pay jaziya than zakhat


Allah says in Quran that it is perfect and nothing has been left out of it and you need no book of hadith/guidance besides it . . Mullahs say Quran is imperfect and we need other sources besides quran !!

again we will go here into two opposite direction. How you gonna do ablution ? How you will offer prayers? how do you know the percentage of zakhat? How do you know the timing of fasting and how to sights moon ? how you are going to perform hajj?

without taking guidance from Hadiths
 
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again we will go here into two opposite direction. How you gonna do ablution ? How you will offer prayers? how do you know the percentage of zakhat? How do you know the timing of fasting and how to sights moon ? how you are going to perform hajj?

What if I told you that all of this can be answered from Quran alone without taking any assistance from hadith ??

Jaziya was for non muslim who dont pay zakat.
Meray bhai jaziya has no support from Quran !!
 
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That was in reply to question by some christian . Did you not get your answer from the article ??? Quran clearly forbids child marriage .

i did not get the answer. what is child marrige? The article you posted recognise the early marriage of Hadrat aisha(R.A) . would he call it child marriage?

My question was : Are you a child if you cross the age of puberty after getting first period ?

need simple answer

What if I told you that all of this can be answered from Quran alone without taking any assistance from hadith ??


Meray bhai jaziya has no support not from Quran !!
I know jaziya is not mentioned in quran but i siad there was no fixed amount of jaziya in islamic history and different Islamic rulers use different amount for different people

what you expected for non muslims to live freely in islamic state and enjoy all the benefits and welfare free of charge without paying any zakhat or taxes?

and yes please do explain all these from Quranic references..how many prayers>? when? how many rakhts fard and sunnat? and all other pillars of islam
 
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i did not get the answer. what is child marrige? The article you posted recognise the eraly marrige of Hadrat aisha(R.A) . would he call it child marriage?

My question was : Are you a child if you cross the age of puberty after getting first period ?

need simple answer

Meray bhai did you even bother to read it ???? Regarding Ayesha`s marriage it says :

Many practices and laws were abrogated by the Holy Quran. It is quite possible that the Holy Quran mentioned these Laws after the marriage of Prophet Muhammad to our mother in Islam, Aisha, peace be upon him and her. This shouldn't be a surprise because the marriage happened during the early days of Islam.

So certainly, when one wishes to either marry his daughter to a man or when a man wishes to marry a young girl, then in both cases, the father and/or the husband must take into consideration the Noble Verses that I mentioned above, because these are Laws that Allah Almighty had put.

By the way, there is new evidence that suggests that Aisha was much older than 9 years old when she married our Prophet

And regarding child marriage it says :

Because Allah Almighty created every human being unique and different, our physical bodies vary. Yet, in regards to the minimum physical requirements or age for marriage, for both males and females, Allah Almighty had laid it out beautifully for us in the Holy Quran.




1- Children must reach ashuddah (full strength and growth) and adulthood:

Ashuddah in Arabic is derived from the root word shadeed, which means mighty and powerful. Allah Almighty referred to iron as shadeed (having mighty power) in Noble Verse 57:25. Let us look at what Allah Almighty Said regarding children reaching their full strength and growth:

Noble Verse(s) 22:5
Yusuf Ali:
[022:005] O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs).

Arabic (from right to left):

‏22:5 ياايها الناس ان كنتم في ريب من البعث فانا خلقناكم من تراب ثم من نطفة ثم من علقة ثم من مضغة مخلقة وغير مخلقة لنبين لكم ونقر في الارحام مانشاء الى اجل مسمى ثم نخرجكم طفلا ثم لتبلغوا اشدكم ومنكم من يتوفى ومنكم من يرد الى ارذل العمر لكيلا يعلم من بعد علم شيئا وترى الارض هامدة فاذا انزلنا عليهاالماء اهتزت وربت وانبتت من كل زوج بهيج


Noble Verse(s) 40:67
Yusuf Ali:
[040:067] It is He Who has created you from dust then from a sperm-drop, then from a leech-like clot; then does he get you out (into the light) as a child: then lets you (grow and) reach your age of full strength; then lets you become old,- though of you there are some who die before;- and lets you reach a Term appointed; in order that ye may learn wisdom.

Arabic (from right to left):

‏40:67 هو الذي خلقكم من تراب ثم من نطفة ثم من علقة ثم يخرجكم طفلا ثم لتبلغوا اشدكم ثم لتكونوا شيوخا ومنكم من يتوفى من قبل ولتبلغوا اجلا مسمى ولعلكم تعقلون


Noble Verse(s) 6:152
Yusuf Ali:
[006:152] And come not nigh to the orphan's property, except to improve it, until he attain the age of full strength; give measure and weight with (full) justice;- no burden do We place on any soul, but that which it can bear;- whenever ye speak, speak justly, even if a near relative is concerned; and fulfil the covenant of God: thus doth He command you, that ye may remember.

Arabic (from right to left):

‏6:152 ولاتقربوا مال اليتيم الا بالتي هي احسن حتى يبلغ اشده واوفوا الكيل والميزان بالقسط لانكلف نفسا الا وسعها واذا قلتم فاعدلوا ولو كان ذاقربى وبعهد الله اوفوا ذلكم وصاكم به لعلكم تذكرون


Noble Verse(s) 17:34
Yusuf Ali:
[017:034] Come not nigh to the orphan's property except to improve it, until he attains the age of full strength; and fulfil (every) engagement, for (every) engagement will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).

Arabic (from right to left):

‏17:34 ولاتقربوا مال اليتيم الا بالتي هي احسن حتى يبلغ اشده واوفوا بالعهد ان العهد كان مسؤولا


Noble Verse(s) 46:15
Yusuf Ali:
[046:015] We have enjoined on man kindness to his parents: In pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is (a period of) thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strengthand attains forty years, he says, "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favour which Thou has bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam."

Arabic (from right to left):

‏46:15 ووصينا الانسان بوالديه احسانا حملته امه كرها ووضعته كرها وحمله وفصاله ثلاثون شهرا حتى اذا بلغ اشده وبلغ اربعين سنة قال رب اوزعني ان اشكر نعمتك التي انعمت على وعلى والدي وان اعمل صالحا ترضاه واصلح لي في ذريتي اني تبت اليك واني من المسلمين

So here we clearly and indisputably see Allah Almighty distinguishing between a helpless child and a growing human who reaches his full strength.



2- Children reaching the "age of marriage" in Noble Verse 4:6:

Noble Verse(s) 4:6
Yusuf Ali:
[004:006] Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence: But all-sufficient is God in taking account.

Arabic (from right to left):

‏4:6 وابتلوا اليتامى حتى اذا بلغوا النكاح فان انستم منهم رشدا فادفعوا اليهم اموالهم ولاتاكلوها اسرافا وبدارا ان يكبروا ومن كان غنيا فليستعفف ومن كان فقيرا فلياكل بالمعروف فاذا دفعتم اليهم اموالهم فاشهدوا عليهم وكفى بالله حسيبا

So here the adult who is keeping the orphan's inheritance from his/her deceased parents is required by Allah Almighty to never release the money until:

1- The orphan, boy or girl, reaches the age of marriage.

2- The adult keeper must see a "sound judgment" and enough maturity and responsibility in him/her in order for the former to be allowed to release the money to the orphan.



3- Female-children becoming fataaya (young ladies) become ready to be "wed":


Noble Verse(s) 4:25
Yusuf Ali:
[004:025] If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And God hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Arabic (from right to left):

‏4:25 ومن لم يستطع منكم طولا ان ينكح المحصنات المؤمنات فمن ماملكت ايمانكم من فتياتكم المؤمنات والله اعلم بايمانكم بعضكم من بعض فانكحوهن باذن اهلهن واتوهن اجورهن بالمعروف محصنات غير مسافحات ولامتخذات اخدان فاذا احصن فان اتين بفاحشة فعليهن نصف ماعلى المحصنات من العذاب ذلك لمن خشى العنت منكم وان تصبروا خير لكم والله غفور رحيم

A girl starts out being a child طفلة. This is further proven in Noble Verses 22:5 and 40:67 above (طفلا child). Then she becomes a fataat فتاة , which is what فتياتكم (your young ladies) is derived from in Noble Verse 4:25.

Clearly, Allah Almighty never allowed marriage with a طفلة child!

Furthermore, Allah Almighty Said:

Noble Verse(s) 24:59
Yusuf Ali:
[024:059] But when the children among you come of age, let them (also) ask for permission, as do those senior to them (in age): Thus does God make clear His Signs to you: for God is full of knowledge and wisdom.

Arabic (from right to left):

‏24:59 واذا بلغ الاطفال منكم الحلم فليستأذنوا كما استأذن الذين من قبلهم كذلك يبين الله لكم اياته والله عليم حكيم

الاطفال (children) is a plural, and it is derived from طفل (child), which is singular. الحلم, which is translated as "come of age", literally means when the child knows about sex. For boys, it also means that when he experiences his first ejaculation either in his sleep or through masturbation.

So clearly again, Allah Almighty differentiated between the children and the teenagers.



4- Wisdom and Knowledge from Allah Almighty came after ashuddah:

Noble Verse(s) 12:22
Yusuf Ali:
[012:022] When Joseph attained His full manhood, We gave him power and knowledge: thus do We reward those who do right.

Arabic (from right to left):

‏12:22 ولما بلغ اشده اتيناه حكما وعلما وكذلك نجزي المحسنين


Noble Verse(s) 28:14
Yusuf Ali:
[028:014] When he reached full age, and was firmly established (in life), We bestowed on him wisdom and knowledge: for thus do We reward those who do good.

Arabic (from right to left):

‏28:14 ولما بلغ اشده واستوى اتيناه حكما وعلما وكذلك نجزي المحسنين

So here again, wisdom and knowledge, which are essential for survival in life, start coming after the child reaches his/her age of strength and growth to a point where he/she can now start looking towards becoming independent and take responsibility for him/herself. Now of course, the best age for having the best Wisdom is the age of 40:

"We have enjoined on man kindness to his parents: In pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is (a period of) thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says, 'O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favour which Thou has bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam.' (The Noble Quran, 46:15)"

Please visit: The Mercy of Allah Almighty.

And of course, there are always those who are cursed by Allah Almighty and never receive neither Guidance nor Wisdom:

"Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (The Noble Quran, 2:18)"

"The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat- herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom. (The Noble Quran, 2:171)"

"It is he whom God guides, that is on true Guidance; but he whom He leaves astray - for such wilt thou find no protector besides Him. On the Day of Judgment We shall gather, them together, prone on their faces, blind, dumb, and deaf: their abode will be Hell: every time it shows abatement, We shall increase from them the fierceness of the Fire. (The Noble Quran, 17:97)"

Conclusion:

We have clearly seen in the preceding Noble Verses that Allah Almighty:

1- Distinguished between helpless children and older ones, such as teenagers.

2- Forbade even allowing for the child to take on his/her responsibilities in life without being fully ready to engage them. For instance, in the case of the boy, perhaps he wouldn't even be allowed to carry the sword until his muscles and endurance are fully grown. Or, for instance, he wouldn't be allowed to take the piece of land that he inherited from his deceased father until he is physically able to plow it.

  • It takes a lot to physically grow up, especially in the old days where life was 100% physical, and quite challenging and dangerous.
3- In Noble Verse 4:6 (section #2) above, Allah Almighty clearly made the age of marriage be a much older one, because through it, He, the Almighty, Gave the determination on when to give the orphan his/her inheritance; when "they reach the age of marriage" (4:6).
 
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^ Yaar there is no need to post such long article. I want you to answer this question according to your understanding of islam

Are you a child if you cross the age of puberty after getting first period ?

When you become baligh according to Islam ?
 
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^ Yaar there is no need to post such long article. I want you to answer this question according to your understanding of islam

Are you a child if you cross the age of puberty after getting first period ?

When you become baligh according to Islam ?

Meray bhai ek dafa parh lo , saray jawab hain is mein , And about your questions regarding prayers , hajj etc , we will discuss it some other time IA
 
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Meray bhai ek dafa parh lo , saray jawab hain is mein , And about your questions regarding prayers , hajj etc , we will discuss it some other time IA
Parha ha and the article is very vague and my questions are very simple, clear and straight forward ..

yea or no he kar doo

My perception of islam was that it dont set any specific age of marriage and allow you to marry at any age after reaching the ag e of puberty. you can even marry at 40 if you want but what Islam considered child marriage are those marriage which you do before the age of puberty and these marriages are illegal and forbidden. People here did not agree with my understanding thats why i have asked these fews questions

What is child marriage in Islam? When you become baligh in Islam? Can you be called a child after reaching the age of puberty?

.btw i am also leaving..enough of it
 
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On another note, this is the reason why people should stop looking at everything from the POV of whether it is islamic or unislamic, and instead ask the question of whether it is moral or immoral. It is easy to make the case that there is nothing unislamic about little girls being married off. But rationally, especially in today's society, a girl (or boy) has to be a certain age to be able to make life changing decisions and know what is good for them. That is why reason and logic should be the basis of laws, not whether something is islamic or unislamic.

Perhaps, it is not wise to jump into religious discussions, especially when you are not a Muslim. I say that because in order to argue over Islamic matters, one has to have established absolute faith in Islam. You cannot argue over spiritual matters that cannot, yet, be proved with technology. I say this because when Islam has given us a general code of conduct, all our laws have to be within it and only a Muslim can understand that.

Islam tells us to protect the rights of those who can't defend themselves.

Can a 12 year old girl defend herself if a rich, 70 year old man forces her parents to wed her?

In an ideal world, these things wouldn't happen, but we know we don't live in an ideal world. We know what happens in Pakistan. It is our duty as true Muslims, and it is the duty of the government of Pakistan, to protect the rights of poor girls from exploitation.

Okay brother, I have only 1 simple question, to settle this argument, my only request is that the answer should be realistic as to common practice:

Question: Does the current law, absolutely, protect the same 12 year old girl or is the girl wed to some rich baba regardless of existence of that law?
 
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Look deep within , now is the law prohibiting the marriage of underage girls , the pressing problem of this society and thus by extension country ? What exactly was the need to create another controversy in these difficult and testing times ? Do we really not have enough problems ?
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Please come out of the ideal world and step into the one , that exists today . The real world is extremely different than the one that you have in mind .

What an absolute waste my friend. We stand at odds over the matter as I believe that Quran and Islamic laws are supreme and can not be changed to suit our needs. While you believe that there must be many other laws. My opinion is that we need implementation of correct laws rather then introduction of hundreds of laws.

You kept coming at me with what Islam says and I absolutely agree, if Islam has defined that the potential marriage candidate be put through certain tests then that should be our path rather then imposing an age limit. I personally believe that an overwhelming majority of women around me, even at age 21, are not mature enough to be wed then why impose a limit of 18?

But that's just me.
 
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Okay brother, I have only 1 simple question, to settle this argument, my only request is that the answer should be realistic as to common practice:

Question: Does the current law, absolutely, protect the same 12 year old girl or is the girl wed to some rich baba regardless of existence of that law?

Rich people will always pressure poor people.
Powerful people will always pressure weaker people.

The law should be designed to negate this pressure, not legitimize it.

You are right that the rich guys will continue to do what they do but, at least when the law gets involved, it should be on the side of the 12 year old girl, not the 70 year old man.
 
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Well with your definition, Islam may have been revolutionary in 7th century, but if it's not flexible and don't allow to make laws for 21st century requirements than it's simple outdated as we are not in 7th century anymore.

Your problem is that you believe Islamic laws to be targeted at a certain age or period. However, Islamic law was introduced as a guidance for all times and do not require amendment from absolutely limited capabilities of mankind. Once you put your faith in Islam as divine, you will not find the need to alter things.
 
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