Pakistani Indian showdown inevitable in Afghanistan?

[no_name]

It will be a replay of the Gen. Elphinstone vs. Akbar Khan rout that left a single British soldier returning to his garrison with news of the massacre.

Somehow I feel they deliberately left one guy alive to report the news.

regards,

 

[EjazR]

Indians commonly pass misconceptions as "facts", such as Afghanistan being strategic depth for Pakistan against India. Really? Really? How so? Afghanistan was only used by Pakistan to kick out the soviets and support Taliban afterwards (and Taliban had high support). They did not use them against india in Kashmir. Kashmiri freedom fighters were not Afghan Taliban. So in no way did Pakistan use Afghanistan against india.

But GoI relies on this misconception to send intelligence (and possibly military in the future) to Afghanistan. And indian public think they are doing the right thing. Ok, it's none of our business if you're trying to help Afghanis, but the fact of the matter is we know the real reason why you're there, and that reason makes it our business.

Actually post '93 when US threatened to declare Pakistan a terrorist sponsor state. A lot of training camps were shutdown in Pakistan and transferred to Afghanistan. If you refer to for example Arif Jamal's "The Untold Story of Jihad in Kashmir", you can see that many Pakistanis would undergo training in FATA and Khost province located camps. Moreover, we have foreign groups like OBL's AQ setting up their own training camps in collaboration with the locals.

Infact, when Bill Clinton launched cruise missile in Afghanistan in response to the Embassy bombings and"declaration of war" in'98 by AQ, it attacked a Harkatul Ansar camp in which fighters traiing for Kashmir were killed. Ahmed Rashid in his book Taliban also refers to this.

There is the other case of Kandahar hijackings, the single biggest failure against terrorists by GoI. People like Saeed Sheikh and Masood Azhar (both Pakistanis) were released where one would go on to kill Daniel Pearl and both would possibly plan more attacks against Indians.

The Taliban were not actually happy with the untoward attention. Their foreign policy had been subverted by these terrorists outfits and agencies that supported them.

So yes Afghanistan has been used against India. Since this was not happening pre-92-93 and hasn't happened since post 2001, the situation has turned back into its historical state.

On the question of whether India is using Afghanistan to create trouble in Pakistan, until the "suitable time" for Gilani and co. comes to present the proof its still speculation. On the other hand, the Afghan govt. and intelligence chiefs have stated that phone intercepts have indicated ISI role in bombing of Indian consulates, Bangladeshi ministers have alleged that Musharraf himself had visited ULFA leaders and of course there is the covert support to a number of NE rebels through Bangladesh. A number of individuals arrested by the Nepalese authorities have pointed out anti-India activities like fake currencies involvement. Even Pakistani diplomats were sent back from Nepal once they were detected by the Nepalese authorities themselves.

Christine Fair of RAND who was the only person to sort of allege that Indians were up to something, (but not what the Pakistanis say they are, apparently) has said
""The problems with the Pakistanis is that they lie too much and so, that when they tell the truth, no one believes them."
......
Fair said the US inability to compel Pakistan to stop its funding and support to all extremist groups was actually what was behind the instability in South Asia, and pointed out, "Let's remember, that it was a Pakistan-based and backed terrorist group, Jaish-e-Mohammed, that attacked the Indian Parliament, which brought the largest mobilisation of forces throughout the country, both of them to a near-war crisis with the spectre of nuclear escalation."
http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...nd-who-infuriated-india-offered-key-post.html

So lets not forget that it has been Pakistani nationals or groups receiving Pakistani backings through training or monetary funds that have been used against India in Afghanistan, Nepal and Bangladesh and for the last 20 years.


So yes maybe its still possible its true, but credible evidence has to be placed on the world stage. Right now we only have rhetoric and "proofs" for domestic consumption which will have its anti-India affect, but will backfire in the long term as it will strengthen the political Islamist forces including TTP type groups.

The main focus should be to curtail these extremist groups that have undermined Pakistan and its people and the agencies that used them as foreign policy tool. Its high time to realize that there is no military solution within this context.

 

[SMC]

You're taking individuals' words on where the training camps were but there is no state indication or admission (either from India or US or Pakistan) as to where the camps were. They wouldn't need to go to Afghanistan for any training if Pakistan needed any freedom fighter training, they could do it in FATA. Why didn't US threaten to make declare Pakistan a terror state if by your admission they moved to FATA, because that's in Pakistan as well?

As far as admission goes, how do you know Pakistan lies, because a state told you so? What if Pakistan did not lie, but what Pakistan said wasn't in the interests of that state, so they passed that around as a lie? That's very much possible, isn't it?

How do you know the proof is for domestic consumption? That's rhetoric too, from your own mouth and from other indians. Is all the proof released to public? Because that is not something that happens very often.

 

[Always Neutral]

Why didn't US threaten to make declare Pakistan a terror state if by your admission they moved to FATA, because that's in Pakistan as well?

.

Weak memory or is it selective ?

The US went one step ahead and confirmed by Gen M (ex SSG) and not a puny being like u accuse your politicians of being whenever Pakistan is in hot water

THEY SAID THEY WILL BOMB US TO THE STONE AGES

Sorry if it sounds horrible but thats a fact though the US denies it !

Anyway Pakistan can still gain the upper hand in Afghanistan if they can give us OBL on a platter.

Regards

 

[SMC]

You're talking about post-9/11?

As far as OBL, you really think US is in Afghanistan for OBL and to catch the perpetrators (or at least what they would like you to think as the perpetrators) of 9/11?

 

[Always Neutral]

You're talking about post-9/11?

As far as OBL, you really think US is in Afghanistan for OBL and to catch the perpetrators (or at least what they would like you to think as the perpetrators) of 9/11?

Your such an erudite and you caught us with our pants down





We came here because

1. WE love the drugs as its better than what is grown in Colombia !

2. WE have become atheists so we needed to discover Islam and what better place than Afghanistan ?

3. Some one told us the best bars, night life and booze is freely available there more than in USA and UK.

4. We love to eat sand with our pre-cooked meals ?

I could go on but I would get banned.

Regards

 

[SMC]

Come on son, you know there's better reasons as to why you came. Namely to restrict China from using Gwadar. Why need to act oblivious.

 

[Always Neutral]

Come on son, you know there's better reasons as to why you came. Namely to restrict China from using Gwadar. Why need to act oblivious.

The last place a UK shipping company is going to ship commercial goods is Gwadar ?

Do you know anything about shipping ?

Ahsan you seem to be a nice guy but a bit too brainwashed. For the sake of debate please indulge an old sea dog like me ?

Three reasons why UK needs Gwadar ?

Three reasons why the PA is withdrawing and the FC is being control of that area?

Three reason why the SC court does not accept the GOP rejoinder on missing persons from B areas ?

I am more than happy to learn from you !

 

[ambidex]

If China will have base in Pakistan we will have in Afghanistan .

 

[Always Neutral]

If China will have base in Pakistan we will have in Afghanistan .

Can you support it ?

Next Question how ?

Next Question How Long ? ( Ur economy has never been stronger than Russia?)

What will you gain in the long run except some body bags ?

Regards

 

[Hulk]

Can you support it ?

Next Question how ?

Next Question How Long ? ( Ur economy has never been stronger than Russia?)

What will you gain in the long run except some body bags ?

Regards

He is kidding, I do not think he is serious. Also it can be his personal opinion.

 

[SMC]

The last place a UK shipping company is going to ship commercial goods is Gwadar ?

Do you know anything about shipping ?

Ahsan you seem to be a nice guy but a bit too brainwashed. For the sake of debate please indulge an old sea dog like me ?

Three reasons why UK needs Gwadar ?

Three reasons why the PA is withdrawing and the FC is being control of that area?

Three reason why the SC court does not accept the GOP rejoinder on missing persons from B areas ?

I am more than happy to learn from you !

You do realize I am referring to US being there (not UK) and China using Gwadar (not UK). China has a lot to gain from utilizing Gwadar for its own needs. Moreover, China is the country will threaten US hegemony in years to come. You know what states that have hegeomony do to continue their hegemony.

 

[Always Neutral]

You do realize I am referring to US being there (not UK) and China using Gwadar (not UK). China has a lot to gain from utilizing Gwadar for its own needs. Moreover, China is the country will threaten US hegemony in years to come. You know what states that have hegeomony do to continue their hegemony.

So as a proud citizen ( probably the new Generation) of Pakistan, u are ready to exchange one hegemony (US) for another one (China) ?

Ok for once give me a blunt answer!

You give Gwadar to the Chinese!

" A local chinese bus full of 50 woman, children etc run over a mine and many die". The masterminds are TTP (backed by whom, we will never know) in Wazirstan.

q1. How do you think the general chinese public will react ?

q2. Will you allow the chinese drones to hunt the TTP without a back lash ?

I have more questions but only if you put some thought in the above answers.

Regards

Ps differentiate between a base and access to a base

 

[SMC]

Chinese hegemony would be better than US, yes. US has been meddling into other countries affairs since WW2 and has been involved in the killing of innocent people and has allowed others (such as Israel) to kill other innocents. But moreover, my point was that US wants to maintain its hegemony.

Why would Chinese go into Waziristan btw? They just need natural resources to come through Gwadar.

 

[Always Neutral]

Chinese hegemony would be better than US, yes. US has been meddling into other countries affairs since WW2 and has been involved in the killing of innocent people and has allowed others (such as Israel) to kill other innocents. But moreover, my point was that US wants to maintain its hegemony.

Why would Chinese go into Waziristan btw? They just need natural resources to come through Gwadar.

So u are naive enough to believe that China will have no demands ?

I think you need to Gen. M book on the ultimatum China gave him before LM operation!

Regards