Pakistani & Indian Artillery

[AUSTERLITZ]

Also u misread the line at wikipedia article,it says the munitions have improved accuracy,it means they have improved accuracy over normal dumb munitions,not that they have improved accuracy over smerch's munitions.

Here's the comparison straight from GFP (Global Firepower), updated in Dec 2012, which is an authentic source.

Pakistan

SP Guns - 1065
Towed guns - 3197
MLRS(Multiple Launch Rocket System) - 172
Mortars - 3200



India

SP Guns - 330
Towed guns - 6585
MLRS(Multiple Launch Rocket System) - 292
Mortars - 5000

Difference in calibre is huge.Bulk of pakistan's artillery is 155mm,most of ours are older obsolete calibres.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Here's the comparison straight from GFP (Global Firepower), updated in Dec 2012, which is an authentic source.

Pakistan

SP Guns - 1065
Towed guns - 3197
MLRS(Multiple Launch Rocket System) - 172
Mortars - 3200



India

SP Guns - 330
Towed guns - 6585
MLRS(Multiple Launch Rocket System) - 292
Mortars - 5000

Your stats on PA arty are so wrong buddy... also except ur bofors or the m777 being procured all .. well most of your arty is obsolete..

 

[OrionHunter]

Your stats on PA arty are so wrong buddy...

Frankly, I haven't the faintest clue of what Pakistan has in terms of arty. I've taken the stats from the Global Fire Power website. Here it is...

Military Strength of Pakistan

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

2.Al zarrar still uses type-59 turret,no matter how much external armour ptiles it is armoured with.That makes its base armour far far weaker than armour of upgraded t-72 m1.

Not realy AZ use modular composite armour along with ERA..... its effectiveness was proved in WOT... When it took several RPG shots and tank mines and yet its crew survived.

3.A common misperception,normal uranium is softer than tungsten.A hardening technique allows very slight better performance.
DU is used because its cheaper than machinized tungsten.But its also toxic.Training is never done with DU rounds.

Not entirely correct...When a tungsten rod strikes armour, it deforms and mushrooms, making it progressively blunter while Uranium is "pyrophoric" at the point of impact it burns away into vapour, so the projectile stays sharp. When it breaks through, the burning DU turns the inside of a vehicle into an inferno of white-hot gas and sparks.Normal uranium is not as hard as tungsten. But a classified technique allows it to be hardened. This is believed to involve alloying it with titanium and cooling it so that it forms a single large metallic crystal rather than a chaotic mass of tiny crystals. This structure is very strong and produces an improvement similar to the difference between a brittle pencil lead and a carbon-fibre tennis racquet. ..

Also india does have stockpile of DU rounds for t-series.It just isn't operational until in crisis.Same in russia.
''It is thought that between 17 and 20 countries have weapons incorporating depleted uranium in their arsenals. They include the U.S., the UK, France, Russia, China, India, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Bahrain, Egypt, Kuwait, Pakistan, Thailand, Iraq and Taiwan. Iran also has performed wide research on DU penetrators since 2001. DU ammunition is manufactured in 18 countries. Only the US and the UK have acknowledged using DU weapons.''

Not true... Pakistan already shows its DU rounds in exhibitions... also there is no proof of india having DU rounds...

Vasiliy Fofanov's Modern Russian Armour Page
Here go to the 125 mm APFSDS rounds of russian tanks.
You'll find several DU rounds are available.But performance of tungsten rounds are by no means ineffective.

I never said they are ineffective... but rather inferior as compared to DU rounds.

Frankly, I haven't the faintest clue of what Pakistan has in terms of arty. I've taken the stats from the Global Fire Power website. Here it is...

Military Strength of Pakistan

Global firepower is inaccurate and their claims have been debunked several times here on PDF..

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Not realy AZ use modular composite armour along with ERA..... its effectiveness was proved in WOT... When it took several RPG shots and tank mines and yet its crew survived.


Not entirely correct...When a tungsten rod strikes armour, it deforms and mushrooms, making it progressively blunter while Uranium is "pyrophoric" at the point of impact it burns away into vapour, so the projectile stays sharp. When it breaks through, the burning DU turns the inside of a vehicle into an inferno of white-hot gas and sparks.Normal uranium is not as hard as tungsten. But a classified technique allows it to be hardened. This is believed to involve alloying it with titanium and cooling it so that it forms a single large metallic crystal rather than a chaotic mass of tiny crystals. This structure is very strong and produces an improvement similar to the difference between a brittle pencil lead and a carbon-fibre tennis racquet. ..



Not true... Pakistan already shows its DU rounds in exhibitions... also there is no proof of india having DU rounds...



I never said they are ineffective... but rather inferior as compared to DU rounds.



Global firepower is inaccurate and their claims have been debunked several times here on PDF..

Vasiliy Fofanov's Modern Russian Armour Page
Go this this page APFSDS section,then nomenclature.It will give you detailed info.
Check mango tungsten APFSDS rounds which has 500 mm penetration and lekalo apfsds round which has 600-650 mm penetration.These are 2 tungsten rounds used in t-series in india.
Al-Zarrar Main Battle Tank (MBT) - Army Technology
Again al zarrar doesn't have changes to its original base turret armour which is vastly inferior to t-72s.All sources claly say it has ADD ON modular composite armour and ERA.The word modular itself means indepedndent parts that can be easily removed or added.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

T-72 has far better ERA protection all over the tank and can also use heavier ERA like KONTAKT.Al- zarrar old type 59 turret can't.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Vasiliy Fofanov's Modern Russian Armour Page
Go this this page APFSDS section,then nomenclature.It will give you detailed info.
Check mango tungsten APFSDS rounds which has 500 mm penetration and lekalo apfsds round which has 600-650 mm penetration.These are 2 tungsten rounds used in t-series in india.
Al-Zarrar Main Battle Tank (MBT) - Army Technology

The older short rod Naiza DU had a penetration power of 550-600mm ... now we have developed a long rod DU ... which has far more penetration power a tungsten round could ever provide.

Again al zarrar doesn't have changes to its original base turret armour which is vastly inferior to t-72s.All sources claly say it has ADD ON modular composite armour and ERA.The word modular itself means indepedndent parts that can be easily removed or added.

T-72 has far better ERA protection all over the tank and can also use heavier ERA like KONTAKT.Al- zarrar old type 59 turret can't.

Thicker ERA doesnt mean "better" ... AZ uses the same armour and ERA used on AK... these are the ERA bricks used on AZ:


Again how is it inferior? just bcoz you say so? Take a look at the AZ without era:

With ERA on its sides:

Beint fitted with ERA:

This tank (without ERA) was hit by a mine.... and than hit by multiple RPGs from different directions... but thanks to its armour .. the crew survived with any serious injuries:

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

A source on new longer rod penetrator plz,all sources give naiza at 550 mm .Also its difficult to increase length of the rod too much with the size of the autoloader unless u change the carousel autoloader.Ofcourse the same works for india's t-72s.

As for the pictures above that is a layer of add-on spaced composite armour enveloping the base turret of type 59.
T-72 already has composite armour built into base turret,doesn't need add on modular packages.Also comparing ERA distribution of t-72 with al zarrar u'll see there is no comparison.The era can be placed all over the tank in t-72 due to greater size.it can also be equipped with heavy ERA bricks in angular sloped fashion which offer great protection against APFSDS rounds,compared to flat era tiles of al zarar.I'll show u pics to illustrate.



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This is the al khalid,note the heavy angular ERA bricks on turret front,this provides great protection as those are heavy ERA tiles and also angled to minimize penetration as penetrator needs to go maximum distance to reach base armour.



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The ajeya.Notice the cone shaped ERA tiles in front armour to minimise penetration.Notice the massive spread of ERA tiles all over the body which will offer great protection all around the tank.If u have seen t-90 you will notice even bigger ERA tiles on frontal turret placed at best angle.


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Notice the great coverage of Heavy ERA.
Now compare these above 3 to al zarrar.



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This is older generation light slab ERA,[even t-72 doesn't have latest ERA of t-90,but its heavy and angled]Worse the al zarrar ERA is not angled,providing minimal protection.Also its not fitted anywhere except front arc and some tiles on hull side.That too there are serious gaps veisible in the picture on the frontal arc between ERA tiles.

As for the modular composite package over the type 59 thats gives it a different box shaped look,this isn't new tech.its old spaced armour package which shouldn't be used in front turret rather in back side of turret.
Here take a look at this pic .


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Al zarrar destroyed with FRONTAL ARMOUR penetrated.This wasn't even done by enemy tanks.It clearly shows the base type 59 turret over which the spaced add on armour was put which has been destroyed.The hollow spaced comosite armour package is obsolete in frontal armour.If taliban can destroy frontal armour of al zarrar then u understand how good its add on armour really is.

 

[notorious_eagle]

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Al zarrar destroyed with FRONTAL ARMOUR penetrated.This wasn't even done by enemy tanks.It clearly shows the base type 59 turret over which the spaced add on armour was put which has been destroyed.The hollow spaced comosite armour package is obsolete in frontal armour.If taliban can destroy frontal armour of al zarrar then u understand how good its add on armour really is.

If my memory serves me correct; it was hit by land mine, 4-5 suicide bombers packed with explosives rammed into the tank and more than 10 RPG were fire into AZ by TTP Bunnies. The crew survived without any scratches, if you think that is not enough protection than the conversation has ended right here. I gave you a link before, please go through and do some research before summing up your conclusions about AZ.

 

[Armstrong]

Calling @nabil_05 !

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

If my memory serves me correct; it was hit by land mine, 4-5 suicide bombers packed with explosives rammed into the tank and more than 10 RPG were fire into AZ by TTP Bunnies. The crew survived without any scratches, if you think that is not enough protection than the conversation has ended right here. I gave you a link before, please go through and do some research before summing up your conclusions about AZ.

The tank looks like it has been hit by IEDs that took its tracks off.I read the report it doesn't say RPGs anywhere[and even if they did,any modern tank should be immune from obsolete rpg-7 anywhere except perhaps tracks],only that the whole force[not only al zarrar ]was then ambushed by suicide bombers on motorbikes with explosives.Is that supposed to do more damage than APFSDS round?

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

A source on new longer rod penetrator plz,all sources give naiza at 550 mm .Also its difficult to increase length of the rod too much with the size of the autoloader unless u change the carousel autoloader.Ofcourse the same works for india's t-72s.

Tht is why the autoloader has been changed in our new tanks... i dont have a source but i do have a picture:

seems like the new round displayed in the soft launch of ideas expo is slightly longer than the older naiza round
soft launch ideas def expo march 2012

Ideas def expo 2002(picture)

As for the pictures above that is a layer of add-on spaced composite armour enveloping the base turret of type 59.
T-72 already has composite armour built into base turret,doesn't need add on modular packages.Also comparing ERA distribution of t-72 with al zarrar u'll see there is no comparison.The era can be placed all over the tank in t-72 due to greater size.it can also be equipped with heavy ERA bricks in angular sloped fashion which offer great protection against APFSDS rounds,compared to flat era tiles of al zarar.I'll show u pics to illustrate.



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This is the al khalid,note the heavy angular ERA bricks on turret front,this provides great protection as those are heavy ERA tiles and also angled to minimize penetration as penetrator needs to go maximum distance to reach base armour.
\

The ajeya.Notice the cone shaped ERA tiles in front armour to minimise penetration.Notice the massive spread of ERA tiles all over the body which will offer great protection all around the tank.If u have seen t-90 you will notice even bigger ERA tiles on frontal turret placed at best angle.

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Notice the great coverage of Heavy ERA.
Now compare these above 3 to al zarrar.

Are you implying that thicker era tiles are somehow more effective than lighter ones?

Here take a look at the distribution of ERA on AZ:

Do note the angel of era tiles...

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This is older generation light slab ERA,[even t-72 doesn't have latest ERA of t-90,but its heavy and angled]Worse the al zarrar ERA is not angled,providing minimal protection.Also its not fitted anywhere except front arc and some tiles on hull side.That too there are serious gaps veisible in the picture on the frontal arc between ERA tiles.

As for the modular composite package over the type 59 thats gives it a different box shaped look,this isn't new tech.its old spaced armour package which shouldn't be used in front turret rather in back side of turret.
Here take a look at this pic .


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Al zarrar destroyed with FRONTAL ARMOUR penetrated.This wasn't even done by enemy tanks.It clearly shows the base type 59 turret over which the spaced add on armour was put which has been destroyed.The hollow spaced comosite armour package is obsolete in frontal armour.If taliban can destroy frontal armour of al zarrar then u understand how good its add on armour really is.

AZ uses similiar ERA tiles used on AK...And its new ERA developed by GIDs .... not older generation slabs.... As for the penetration of frontal armour.. yes it did.. but the turret wasnt penetrated... also do note tht this AZ didnt have ERA and it was hit by several RPGs,Talibunny suicide attackers..land mines.. ... and thanks to its armour the crew SURVIVED!

 

[notorious_eagle]

I will post the link again:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-army/7768-al-zarrar-comparison-other-tanks.html

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Thanks for the clarification on the new Heavy ERA on the zarrar.

Has the autoloader been changed in the al zarrar recently?If not then this round doesn't change the t-72 ajeya.al zarrar equation.
The new round would be for al khalid or ak-new version.

Indian army ammunition.


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Standard mango round.500 mm penetration.



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OFB APFSDS round copied and upgraded from israeli APFSDS round.500 mm basic round.610 mm penetration in upgarded round.Improved round under development for arjun mk2.



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On the right.New advanced lekalo round for t-90.650mm penetration.

 

[Sinnerman108]

@AUSTERLITZ

What are you on about ? what kind of circus is this ?


That destroyed Al Zarar tank is just one example, and there is nothing wrong with it being destroyed. There are several M1 Abrams destroyed too at the hand of insurgents far less ferocious than Taliban.
NO tank can survive surrounded / ambushed by 5-10 RPG hoarding foot soldiers.

Put his in your head, there is no such thing as ABSOLUTE ARMOR. you hear me ? now get that in your head and don't come back until each and every cell in your brain has been reprogrammed to understand that.