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Pakistan was created on the basis of group nationalism and not religion

Of course you chose a different way of life. That's not the point here.

The point is that you say India as a nation state won't last because it's a borrowed concept. Well, not only is your 'different way of life' a borrowed concept, you guys are using it to define the nation state of Pakistan, another borrowed concept according to you!!!

Edit: Anyways, I don't agree with you. There is no harm in adapting to conventional practices around the world. India as I said is known to assimilate within itself different identities and concepts. That's the beauty of being an Indian. :)

thats beauty as long as its working...but its differing from realitistic views. the moment the union bubble busts the moment pre-british raj wars will start !!
 
Omar,

If Pakistan was necessary, then so be it.

I don't think there can be a second opinion on that.

It is time to fulfil the dreams of Mr Jinnah whom you quote so liberally.

If one goes by the current situation, that does not seem to be happening.

Notwithstanding, I am sure things will stabilise and we will see a Pakistan that is vibrant as it was before.
 
The Arabs, the Mongols etc. who brought this 'way of life' with them. It might be your core ideology, but it is borrowed from the raiders of the past.

eerrrrr...anyways borrowed and adopted are different. we dont even remember for a single moment that our forefathers were labelled as indians by the greeks.

and we created a identity that was never there before. and its perfectly our own !
 





Anyways, you hindu bharatis do whatever you like with your bharati muslims. I'm sick and tired of these bharati muslims going out of their way to prove their loyalty to their hindu masters. THANK GOD most of them stayed in bharat.
 
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eerrrrr...anyways borrowed and adopted are different. we dont even remember for a single moment that our forefathers were labelled as indians by the greeks.

and we created a identity that was never there before. and its perfectly our own !

That is right.

Muslims claims to be descendants of the Bedous and Persians.

That must be correct.
 





Anyways, you hindu bharatis do whatever you like with your bharati muslims. I'm sick and tired of these bharati muslims going out of their way to prove their loyalty to their hindu masters. THANK GOD most of them stayed in bharat.

hindus in india does not own indian muslim to do what ever they want with muslims they are equal partners, brothers in good and bad.yes they deserve better so are looking forward to a brighter future.could you tell what you mean by "going out of the way "?
 
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That is right.

Muslims claims to be descendants of the Bedous and Persians.

That must be correct.

all the hindu blame this as if muslims are outsiders just to make their claim stronger over subcontinent... it is true that we intermingled with the persians and the middle eastern arabs and their influence remained more strong over these areas..but its doesnt exclude us from our ethnicity...
 
thats beauty as long as its working...but its differing from realitistic views. the moment the union bubble busts the moment pre-british raj wars will start !!

I won't deny it. India does not have an easily identifiable cord which binds us together unlike nation states based on religion. Hence there might arise some occasions of discontent amongst different factions of society. To avoid the pre-british raj situation we need a dual binding force of a strong central governing authority as well as constant dissemination of the values of being an Indian into the hearts of every Indian.

eerrrrr...anyways borrowed and adopted are different. we dont even remember for a single moment that our forefathers were labelled as indians by the greeks.

Factually incorrect. The greek/british/western term for ALL of us was Indians. Doesn't the name come from Indus Valley Civilization, which lies majorly in modern day Pakistan?
 
Anyways, you hindu bharatis do whatever you like with your bharati muslims. I'm sick and tired of these bharati muslims going out of their way to prove their loyalty to their hindu masters. THANK GOD most of them stayed in bharat.

That is a most unfair statement where you want Indian Muslims to be loyal to Pakistan and he namak harams.

Are you disloyal to Pakistan and claim that you are a Saudi or an Iranian (as most of you claim to be)?

If so, then Pakistan has no one of Indian descent and instead are Arabs and Iranis?
 
Saare Jakan se achchhaa Hindostan hamaraa...

Majhab nahi sikhataa, apas me bair rakhana......


Doesn't seem like the words of a man who hated India!
 
hindus in india does not own indian muslim to do what ever they want with muslims they are equal partners, brothers in good and bad.yes they deserve better so are looking forward to a brighter future.could you tell what you mean by "going out of the way "?

Did you see the Youtube video I appended where Madani the President of the Darool took on Musharraf?\

Do see it.

And you will be reminded of the Beatles song - Open up your eyes now, tell me what you see.

Please don't assume proprietorship of Indian Muslims.

I presume his writing 'out of the way' (which could be termed as misplaced) may have been spurred by the happenings in Pakistan regarding the Christians where even balanced Muslims have got assassinated and others threatened and where the Muslim Governor was not given a decent funeral since their was the cry that it should be boycotted.
 
Factually incorrect. The greek/british/western term for ALL of us was Indians. Doesn't the name come from Indus Valley Civilization, which lies majorly in modern day Pakistan?[/QUOTE]

yes probably, we the majority of the muslims of india, discarded the term and created our own term PAKistan. I dont think so red indians like to be called red indians. same should have been in the case with India. but its working for you to keep different parts of subcontinent together, well and good for the time being...
 
all the hindu blame this as if muslims are outsiders just to make their claim stronger over subcontinent... it is true that we intermingled with the persians and the middle eastern arabs and their influence remained more strong over these areas..but its doesnt exclude us from our ethnicity...

I understand your anguish and it is legitimate.

However, that is not the popular sentiment.

How can Muslims be 'outsiders'?

They are unlike the British. They intermingled with the country and became a part and parcel of it to share the joys and sorrows of the country.

Then many became Muslims.

The 'separateness' blurred.

So, how are they 'outsiders'?
 
yes probably, we the majority of the muslims of india, discarded the term and created our own term PAKistan. I dont think so red indians like to be called red indians. same should have been in the case with India. but its working for you to keep different parts of subcontinent together, well and good for the time being...

This is faulty logic. Even the term "China" is of foreign origin, the internal name used is quite different.

Like it our not, India is a civilizational state. It was united many times in its history, even with our differences we share a common heritage
 
Are you serious? Wasn't it a religious Barelvi that just shot and murdered Salman Taseer and was then praised garlanded for doing it?

No, the murderer of Taseer was a zealot. Mumtaz Qadri wasn't a "religious" person by any stretch of the imagination, he had a girlfriend & had love affairs before marriage with a girl in Karachi. He was a crazed fanatic. The most powerful & respected Barelvi scholars amongst all Muslims such as Dr Tahir ul-Qadri and Ghamidi have publicly condemned his murder.


And similarly don't you have militant Barlevi and Shia groups in Pakistan that equally are involved in killing and murdering rival sects as well?

Can you name me some groups of militant Shia & Barelvi groups in Pakistan? It's not good to hold out a whole community responsible for the actions of a zealot. Uneducated zealots will support murderers like Qadri, who kill innocent people in the name of "protecting the Prophet(S)'s honor." Extreme religious fervor is completely against the ideology of Islam, & most Barelvis still maintain this principle. Don't take an isolated incident & make it something it's not. You seem to be forgetting that since the inception of Pakistan; Shias, Ismailis, Parsis, Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, Ahmedis & other non-Muslims have lived very peacefully alongside the majority Barelvi Muslims since 1947. Some Barelvis are fanatics in their love of the Prophet(S), but they are not representative of the Barelvi ideology found in Pakistan. So most of your post is pure generalization based on one/a few incidents.


The reality is that the militant political Islamic ideology used by the Army/intelligence estaliblishment used at times in Afghanistan and other times in Kashmir as well as to keep a check on rival political parties has resulted in the mess today.

There has been no involvement ever proven of the alleged hand of the Pakistani government or intelligence in Afghanistan. Don't go by speculation posted by western journalists in their articles, no official of any high stature from Pakistan or anywhere in the world has said the Pakistani government supports the Taliban in any way. Every official has said Pakistan has done a lot against the Taliban, & it needs to do more. There is absolutely no proof indicting Pakistan in supporting the Taliban, besides speculations in reports by some journalists.

The Kashmir movement only became militant in the 1990's, because of all the violence perpetrated by the Indian forces. Kashmir does not belong to India, it is disputed territory.


If "Deobandis" in Pakistan are really so faithful to the Deoband in India, then will the act on the fatwa which declares that there is no Jihad in Kashmir?

Let's leave assumptions out of this, if I can recall correctly, there has been no fatwa declared because Kashmiris are genuinely fighting for their freedom, while the Indian Army has been committing terrorism against them since 1947, & it was only in the past 20 years that the movement became militant. India should stop committing terrorism before asking others to stop fighting for survival, calling it "terrorism".


And this was not only by Deoband ulema but Ahle-Hadees and Barelvi ulema as well. And the Jamiat-Uleam-i-Hind has gathered literally millions of Indian muslims as well as Islamic scholars from around the world to condemn terrorism in all its forms for the last couple of years.

You find me one person from the Ahle-Hadees, Barelvi, Deobandi ulema that explicitly says the Kashmiris are committing terrorism against the Indian Army. Yes, they say terrorism is to be condemned, and that is what all Muslims believe. So the Indian Army should stop it.


And not only that, even Maududi (who was not Deobandi by the way) publicly declared that there is no Jihad in Kashmir and what the GoP was doing in was against Islamic principles (i.e. supporting mercenaries and fighting a war without publicly declaring it) There Can be No Jihad in Kashmir

Pakistan used to be involved in Kashmir, it is not involved in Kashmir anymore. Kashmir is not India's land, it it disputed land that Pakistan considers it's own, and Pakistan will do everything to help Kashmiris fight terrorism from the Indian occupied forces. Zakir Naik said Pakistan should never have been created because the 2-nation theory was unjustified, & people like him are Indian sellouts. It was these people that spoke against the very existence of Pakistan. Anyways, these guys are no experts in politics, they have no right to talk about things they have no clue about. They are not taking any religious stand, they have no knowledge on these issues, so it's better they keep quiet on issues that are not their expertise, & things they have no clue about. It is their personal opinion without any religious context in it, deprived of any sense of reality from the situation. Btw, Kashmir is not a covert war, it has been pretty obvious since 1947 what the Indian Army has done in Kashmir, & what it continues to do today with its 800,000 Army personnel there. That case is specific about a covert war, & there was Pakistani involvement in Kashmir in the past, it isn't involved there anymore.

The ideological orientation of extremist groups come from a militant political religious ideology and not from a school of thought be it Deobandi/Barelvi/Salafi/Wahabbi or Shia.

Wrong. Please read above.

Infact, if Pakistanis actually listened to centres of Islamic thought from India wether Deoband, Bareilly or Shia centres like Lucknow, Pakistan might have been better off by now. And that would mean first of all to wrap the so called "Jihad in Kashmir" and other uses of militant political religious groups in Pakistan by Agencies. Once they are disarmed and demilitarized only then you can go ahead and clean up the politics.

These people clearly have no expertise in politics, yet want to speak about these things. People like Zakir Naik are in no position to comment on these issues. They are clearly sell-outs that do not explicitly condemn Hindutva terrorism, or the terrorism of the Indian state against their own people. They do not wish well for Muslims, especially since most of the "ideological funding" for the Indian Mujahideen & groups like SIMI in the past came from these Ulemas, & it was only recently that they started condemning these attacks, for their own survival in India, not because of any good for Indian Muslims.
 

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