Why is our full history not taught to us in Pakistan Studies?

[M. Sarmad]

Okay for those interested, they will go take a look at what is written in the quoted gentleman’s Dr Phil thesis. And will see what is written. Let’s leave it at that.

Do you have archival access to all the CAP sessions? If you do, post it here. If you don’t then don’t make these claims without posting a reference to the same from either source material or from a historian who is not biased. Or at least biased towards the version of history that is coming from the other side.

Yes, All CAP debates are archived on the NA website. Anyone can access them


Here's another more reliable source (more reliable than Dawn) on the Resolution passed by JUI in Karachi:

"On the 13th January , 1948 , the JUI in their session passed a Resolution demanding that a certain scholar be appointed as Shaykh al - Islam equal in status to that of a Cabinet Minister and the entire Judiciary should be placed under him.."

(Journal of the Pakistan Historical Society - Volumes 36-37 - Page 165)

I mean I guess it’s progress somewhat that now we agree there was a parliamentary committee headed by Zafarullah to draft the objectives resolution and that it had input from ulema. Prior to this, you yourself claimed that Zafarullah headed no such committee and that the first committee with ulema was the BPC.

No, there is no record of any such Committee being set up "before" the Objectives Resolution was moved. We only have details about BPC in the archives, with Zafarullah's name on the top. BPC was set up immediately after the passing of the Objectives Resolution

There is no mention of any such committee constituted to draft OR (or advise the government on religious matters) in the CAP archives where details about dozens of committees and sub-committees constituted by the CAP in 1948/49 are mentioned. We even had committees on "Prostitution in Karachi" and "Child mental health issues", it's all on record and the details are available

And if you still have any doubts, you should read the objections raised by Sris Chandra Chattopadhyaya regarding the Objectives Resolution on the floor of the House, his very first objection was:

"In fact, not even a committee of this House was formed to consider this Resolution.. " (CAP 7 March 1949)

 

[nbamba]

If I could blame 3 leaders who destroyed Pakistan by far the most and caused most losses economically in all sectors these would be

1. Yahya Khan- literqlly split the country. Worked with Bhutto to kill thousands and split East pakistan which was a large economic manufacterer + exporter. Almost overnight we lost more than half our population and 40% of our economy. Geopolitically never recovered

2. ZA Bhutto- Split the country along with Yahya khan. Refused to accept election results due to his own ego. Nationalized all remaining private industries in west pakistan. All the rich/educated remaining started to leave the country. Pakistan private sector never recovered economically with all billionaires/large industries destroyed.

3. Nawaz Sharif- in economic damage he has caused the most loss since the 90s. Even PPP under benazir/zardari managed economic policy better than these imbeciles. The damaged caused by the dollarization of pakistans economy, increasing imports, decreasing exports, billions in loans taken to be spent on failing projects. Corruption imbeded into society. And in the end Islamism used to cover up for failures are halmarks of NS.

So now if you wanna compare Zia to other leaders of pakistan who is failure vs ok vs success when compared to others. The facts are pretty obvious. These 3 leaders in each of their individual capacities hurt pak far more than Zia ever did

It is unfair to accuse Bhutto of nationalization. In Bhutto’s time, almost all countries in the world carried out land reform and nationalization, which was the most fashionable at that time. Even European countries such as Britain and France were carrying out nationalization. Do you think that the question does not consider the background of the times at all?

 

[Ssan]

Yes, All CAP debates are archived on the NA website. Anyone can access them

Provide link here please. All I can find that might be relevant is the national archives but nothing digitized there.

Here's another more reliable source (more reliable than Dawn) on the Resolution passed by JUI in Karachi:

"On the 13th January , 1948 , the JUI in their session passed a Resolution demanding that a certain scholar be appointed as Shaykh al - Islam equal in status to that of a Cabinet Minister and the entire Judiciary should be placed under him.."

(Journal of the Pakistan Historical Society - Volumes 36-37 - Page 165)

Okay cool story people can refer to the Dr Phil theses link to see what I referenced too.

No, there is no record of any such Committee being set up "before" the Objectives Resolution was moved. We only have details about BPC (with Zafarullah's name on the top) in the archives that was set up immediately after the passing of the Objectives Resolution

There is no mention of any such committee in the NA archives where details about dozens of committees and sub-committees constituted by the CAP in 1948/49 are mentioned. We even had committees on "Prostitution in Karachi" and "Child mental health issues", it's all on record.

Include link here. I doubt that the link you share has all the committees and sub-committees included. If it does, also show where they make said claim.

And if you still have any doubts, you should read the objections raised by Sris Chandra Chattopadhyaya regarding the Objectives Resolution on the floor of the House, his very first objection was:

"In fact, not even a committee of this House was formed to consider this Resolution.. " (CAP 7 March 1949)

The Dawn article I referenced is explicit in regards to what the committee was for, ie drafting the objectives resolution. It’s not talking about the BPC. People can open the link to the Dawn article and see for themselves.

What the PNC member says is irrelevant. They also say that this resolution is against what Liaquat Ali wants and then you have Liaquat Ali defend it at the same time.

 

[M. Sarmad]

What the PNC member says is irrelevant.

So, a FACT pointed out by a member of the CAP on the Assembly floor in 1949 that no one in the house contested is irrelevant (to a resolution moved/passed by the house in 1949) but what "Ssan" on PDF says about it in 2023 is gospel truth ??

No point in arguing when you have resorted to "Mein na Manoon"

Anyways, I think enough has been posted on this thread already, let the readers decide

 

[Ssan]

So, a FACT pointed out by a member of the CAP on the Assembly floor in 1949 that no one in the house contested is irrelevant (to a resolution moved/passed by the house in 1949) but what "Ssan" on PDF says about it in 2023 is gospel truth ??

No point in arguing when you have resorted to "Mein na Manoon"

Anyways, I think enough has been posted on this thread already, let the readers decide

I mean, don’t get me wrong, it’s plausible that he might be right. That there was no committee in the house and that it was only a parliamentary committee of ML. I only mean to say that his quote is neither here nor there.

Also please kindly post the link to the archives you referred to.

As I said earlier, I checked the national archives website- nothing digitized.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Also please kindly post the link to the archives you referred to.

National Assembly of Pakistan

National Assembly of Pakistan

na.gov.pk

 

[Ssan]

National Assembly of Pakistan

National Assembly of Pakistan

na.gov.pk

Thanks for this- this looks like good resource, even if incomplete.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Thanks for this- this looks like good resource, even if incomplete.

You're welcome

I have no reason to believe that it's "incomplete" by any means, it even has the most minute details, and there are literally thousands of pages

I have skimmed through all 5 Constitution Making and 4 Legislature sessions of the CAP that were held between Aug 1947 and March 1949 (Passing of the Objectives Resolution). I couldn't find any mention of the alleged Committee formed to draft the Objectives Resolution (though dozens of other committees and sub-committees have been mentioned in detail). Do let me know if you find anything relevant

 

[Neelo]

Let’s just put this into perspective and assume for one minute that Pakistan was indeed “made in the name of Islam”. Okay, now ask yourself these questions:

1) Why was Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind, Majlis-e-Ahrar-ul-Islam and Jamaat-e-Islami opposed to Pakistan's independence in 1947?

2) Why did Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind, Majlis-e-Ahrar-ul-Islam and Jamaat-e-Islami refer to Pakistan as “Najistan” and Muhammad Ali Jinnah as “Kafir-e-Azam”?

Answer these questions if you can.

Funny how the Islamist apologist still can't answer this

 

[M. Sarmad]

Funny how the Islamist apologist still can't answer this

The universal opposition of virtually every significant religious group in Undivided India, indeed the entire Muslim religious establishment to Jinnah's Pakistan movement and the Muslim League cannot be reconciled with any idea of religious origins of Pakistan. This is just one of many paradoxes that anyone who thinks that the true reason for the creation of Pakistan was to establish a religious 'Islamic state', must unravel.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Funny how the Islamist apologist still can't answer this

Pakistan as a state is NOT Islamic by any metric. It is a nation state, carved and established on western standards. Let that sink in...
It is a fallacy to assume that Pakistan or for that matter any state after the initial period has been truly on the principles of Islam.
Your argument is a figment of mind and imagination only to satiate your own dogmas and existential crisis... for a state to be on the principles of Islam, it doesn't not need a priestly class, clergy or ministry! In fact it is something actively discouraged. The Pakistan of today though was a primary imagination of two notable men, none were Jinnah... Rehmat Ali and Iqbal! Jinnah was a lawyer and a politician, not a philosopher or theologian. I do not have to mention the ground work laid by both crucial aspirants of such state... but to mention that the work never finished. Partly because of native discourse or lack thereof, and partly due to lack of awareness or aloofness of the polity.

The universal opposition of virtually every significant religious group in Undivided India, indeed the entire Muslim religious establishment to Jinnah's Pakistan movement and the Muslim League cannot be reconciled with any idea of religious origins of Pakistan. This is just one of many paradoxes that anyone who thinks that the true reason for the creation of Pakistan was to establish a religious 'Islamic state', must unravel.

Again, putting my better judgment aside... I'll quote you man child!

If You had told that to migrating Muslims of the time who left their abodes, wealth and even kin, all for a dream land for themselves and their posterity, you'd have found yourself on the wrong side of the border or ground... of course depending on who you came across. The many who lost their lives wealth or faced genocide wouldn't know how a shyster good 70 years past their ordeal would surmise their travails.

 

[Neelo]

The universal opposition of virtually every significant religious group in Undivided India, indeed the entire Muslim religious establishment to Jinnah's Pakistan movement and the Muslim League cannot be reconciled with any idea of religious origins of Pakistan. This is just one of many paradoxes that anyone who thinks that the true reason for the creation of Pakistan was to establish a religious 'Islamic state', must unravel.

The exception must be the Zia bots who arrogantly dismiss any such paradox.

What a dangerous mindset to have. Even when faced with evidence they still dismiss it.

And then you wonder why science and mathematics are such a foreign concept to them.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Pakistan as a state is NOT Islamic by any metric. It is a nation state, carved and established on western standards. Let that sink in...
It is a fallacy to assume that Pakistan or for that matter any state after the initial period has been truly on the principles of Islam.
Your argument is a figment of mind and imagination only to satiate your own dogmas and existential crisis... for a state to be on the principles of Islam, it doesn't not need a priestly class, clergy or ministry! In fact it is something actively discouraged. The Pakistan of today though was a primary imagination of two notable men, none were Jinnah... Rehmat Ali and Iqbal! Jinnah was a lawyer and a politician, not a philosopher or theologian. I do not have to mention the ground work laid by both crucial aspirants of such state... but to mention that the work never finished. Partly because of native discourse or lack thereof, and partly due to lack of awareness or aloofness of the polity.




Again, putting my better judgment aside... I'll quote you man child!

If You had told that to migrating Muslims of the time who left their abodes, wealth and even kin, all for a dream land for themselves and their posterity, you'd have found yourself on the wrong side of the border or ground... of course depending on who you came across. The many who lost their lives wealth or faced genocide wouldn't know how a shyster good 70 years past their ordeal would surmise their travails.

You seem to have a remarkable propensity for spouting double Dutch, oldie

 

[Neelo]

You seem to have a remarkable propensity for spouting double Dutch, oldie

I seriously don't even understand what he's trying to say.

Lots of paragraphs but no substance or point.

 

[El Sidd]

Bro what is your deal- I really want to know. Do you come here just to troll- are you a libertarian, I thought you were JI for a long time but doesn’t seem like it.

Like Jinnah I seem to fit every and none of the labels attributed to me.