Pakistan UAVs News & Discussions

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Future of Air refueling - something that even project Azm can be extended towards.
View attachment 607110

The PAF ought to develop a large drone in parallel. They can use the same engine and some of the same technology from the manned fighter. The drone can serve as a deep-strike platform, air support asset (e.g., decoy, loyal wingman, EW/EA, etc), and tanker. How about a parallel Project JINN for a multi-mission drone? @JamD

 

[Signalian]

The PAF ought to develop a large drone in parallel. They can use the same engine and some of the same technology from the manned fighter. The drone can serve as a deep-strike platform, air support asset (e.g., decoy, loyal wingman, EW/EA, etc), and tanker. How about a parallel Project JINN for a multi-mission drone? @JamD

Project Azm encompasses a MALE UAV. The large drone you are talking about is bigger than MALE ?

A common data link is a requirement which brings common functionality of information sharing between all the assets in the air. Currently there are two which are known, Link-16 and Link-17. Erieye has Link-16, ZDK-03 probably has Link 17. Western (e.g. German) bought UAVs could have Link-16 enabled, where as local or Chinese could be using Link-17. there could be a module interfacing and linking both the Link-16 and Link-17, but its still important to transition on a common data link to avoid issues like Latency, Bit error rate as well as throughput. Link-16 is an old tech (1980's), where as Link-17 is a new tech, this could mean that Link-17 might be using newer modulation/multiplexing techniques with attributes which are more resistant to jamming/spoofing/meaconing and the throughput could be more than Link-16, basically more bits second transfer rate. The issue of Latency (delay in communication) could come through the use of an extra module linking both Links (16 and 17). If the deep strike drone platform that you mentioned would be communicating with an AWACS like ZDK-03, it would be using guidance from GPS/INS through LEO satellite and communication of the UAV through Data Link using UHF/L-Band/C-Band for not only long range communication but also high data rate for transmission of video etc.

The multi mission drone you mentioned above could lead towards the 6th gen aircraft eventually. A decoy or a loyal wingman or a drone with dedicated ECCM/EW payload, tanker etc.

There is another use of a deep strike platform. It can be a mother-ship to 4 x smaller drones (fixed wing or preferably rotary). So instead of a weapons payload, the bigger drone carries payload of smaller drones. These drones can be launched from the deep-strike drone in the Urban area where they can be used to gather intelligence, conduct recon ahead of an imminent air strike from PAF (manned aircraft or drone), verify at least 4 x different targets and stay in visual range of those targets. This could also be utilized as a decoy tactic. These smaller drones could be used to replenish supplies to SF operating behind enemy lines.

I know your post is on long range and high altitude unmanned vehicle, however some of the main research being conducted in Drone industry is use of smaller UAV in urban and dense urban areas. This is particularly important for COIN war, Police and LEA Ops as well as civilian uses. The issue of navigation comes into play as GPS signal loss is highly probable between high rise buildings which brings the Data Link into consideration to use a different navigation system with sensors such as optical, laser for collision avoidance, acoustic etc.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Project Azm encompasses a MALE UAV. The large drone you are talking about is bigger than MALE ?

A common data link is a requirement which brings common functionality of information sharing between all the assets in the air. Currently there are two which are known, Link-16 and Link-17. Erieye has Link-16, ZDK-03 probably has Link 17. Western (e.g. German) bought UAVs could have Link-16 enabled, where as local or Chinese could be using Link-17. there could be a module interfacing and linking both the Link-16 and Link-17, but its still important to transition on a common data link to avoid issues like Latency, Bit error rate as well as throughput. Link-16 is an old tech (1980's), where as Link-17 is a new tech, this could mean that Link-17 might be using newer modulation/multiplexing techniques with attributes which are more resistant to jamming/spoofing/meaconing and the throughput could be more than Link-16, basically more bits second transfer rate. The issue of Latency (delay in communication) could come through the use of an extra module linking both Links (16 and 17). If the deep strike drone platform that you mentioned would be communicating with an AWACS like ZDK-03, it would be using guidance from GPS/INS through LEO satellite and communication of the UAV through Data Link using UHF/L-Band/C-Band for not only long range communication but also high data rate for transmission of video etc.

The multi mission drone you mentioned above could lead towards the 6th gen aircraft eventually. A decoy or a loyal wingman or a drone with dedicated ECCM/EW payload, tanker etc.

There is another use of a deep strike platform. It can be a mother-ship to 4 x smaller drones (fixed wing or preferably rotary). So instead of a weapons payload, the bigger drone carries payload of smaller drones. These drones can be launched from the deep-strike drone in the Urban area where they can be used to gather intelligence, conduct recon ahead of an imminent air strike from PAF (manned aircraft or drone), verify at least 4 x different targets and stay in visual range of those targets. This could also be utilized as a decoy tactic. These smaller drones could be used to replenish supplies to SF operating behind enemy lines.

I know your post is on long range and high altitude unmanned vehicle, however some of the main research being conducted in Drone industry is use of smaller UAV in urban and dense urban areas. This is particularly important for COIN war, Police and LEA Ops as well as civilian uses. The issue of navigation comes into play as GPS signal loss is highly probable between high rise buildings which brings the Data Link into consideration to use a different navigation system with sensors such as optical, laser for collision avoidance, acoustic etc.

Under AZM the PAF seems to be working on a turboprop-powered MALE UAV.

But I'm saying the PAF ought to look at developing a 9-10-ton jet-powered drone that it could use as a long-range attack aircraft, tanker, EW/EA asset, and other niche roles. In fact, I think it could re-use a lot of AZM's FGFA/NGF technology towards such a drone, e.g., the same engine, composite materials, etc.

But I agree, before a large attack UAV, we should work on smaller applications for conventional and low-intensity conflict scenarios. Technically, I think we should see these drones through the 2020s, the underlying capacity for developing them is already in Pakistan, e.g., high-speed target drone tech, ALCM tech, etc. Factor in the aircraft design and development base of AZM, so, it should be doable.

 

[MastanKhan]

Under AZM the PAF seems to be working on a turboprop-powered MALE UAV.

But I'm saying the PAF ought to look at developing a 9-10-ton jet-powered drone that it could use as a long-range attack aircraft, tanker, EW/EA asset, and other niche roles. In fact, I think it could re-use a lot of AZM's FGFA/NGF technology towards such a drone, e.g., the same engine, composite materials, etc.

But I agree, before a large attack UAV, we should work on smaller applications for conventional and low-intensity conflict scenarios. Technically, I think we should see these drones through the 2020s, the underlying capacity for developing them is already in Pakistan, e.g., high-speed target drone tech, ALCM tech, etc. Factor in the aircraft design and development base of AZM, so, it should be doable.

Bilu,

Who is writing this post---? Is this your little cousin who wants to write something while you left the laptop open---.

 

[JamD]

Under AZM the PAF seems to be working on a turboprop-powered MALE UAV.

But I'm saying the PAF ought to look at developing a 9-10-ton jet-powered drone that it could use as a long-range attack aircraft, tanker, EW/EA asset, and other niche roles. In fact, I think it could re-use a lot of AZM's FGFA/NGF technology towards such a drone, e.g., the same engine, composite materials, etc.

But I agree, before a large attack UAV, we should work on smaller applications for conventional and low-intensity conflict scenarios. Technically, I think we should see these drones through the 2020s, the underlying capacity for developing them is already in Pakistan, e.g., high-speed target drone tech, ALCM tech, etc. Factor in the aircraft design and development base of AZM, so, it should be doable.

Like a non-joke version of this:

(this was a poster at IDEAS from a company that imports quadcopters but wanted to do this in 2 years lol. Ignore the specs besides MTOW they are nonsense).

Here's an idea. You know all those RD93s that come off JF17s after 400 hours (or whatever the life of rd93 is)? Instead of just storing them for no reason use them to power the UAV prototype. If we like it we can talk to Russia to buy new ones. Not sure how Russia would feel about us doing this.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Like a non-joke version of this:
View attachment 607339

(this was a poster at IDEAS from a company that imports quadcopters but wanted to do this in 2 years lol. Ignore the specs besides MTOW they are nonsense).

Here's an idea. You know all those RD93s that come off JF17s after 400 hours (or whatever the life of rd93 is)? Instead of just storing them for no reason use them to power the UAV prototype. If we like it we can talk to Russia to buy new ones. Not sure how Russia would feel about us doing this.

Yep. Note: with a MTOW of 16 tons, how did they only arrive at 300 kg payload? Should be 2,000+ kg at least.

 

[JamD]

Yep. Note: with a MTOW of 16 tons, how did they only arrive at 300 kg payload? Should be 2,000+ kg at least.

Yeah it's a long, embarrassingly funny story that I'll tell someday. I know some of the people (well intentioned but naive) involved personally so don't want to embarrass them publicly.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Yeah it's a long, embarrassingly funny story that I'll tell someday. I know some of the people (well intentioned but naive) involved personally so don't want to embarrass them publicly.

I wonder ... if they had just started out with a target drone project using more readily available COTS, and maybe a conceptual study for a loyal wingman drone (not a design, but just a realistic roadmap of how to get there), they might have been taken seriously.

 

[Kompromat]

Please name one flying wing UAV in service.

 

[R Wing]

The PAF should invest heavily in AI-based autonomous swarm drones. We can purchase the rest (all forms of regular drones) from China --- and it would be silly to try and compete with our brotherly neighbors in terms of tech maturity on larger drone systems. Instead, we should try and "leap frog" toward more novel systems that can be made relatively cheaply and take out and/or confuse expensive systems like the S400.

 

[Signalian]

But I'm saying the PAF ought to look at developing a 9-10-ton jet-powered drone that it could use as a long-range attack aircraft, tanker, EW/EA asset, and other niche roles. In fact, I think it could re-use a lot of AZM's FGFA/NGF technology towards such a drone, e.g., the same engine, composite materials, etc.

I get your drift. While you are implying the mission capability of drone which could go the distance and has multi mission capability, my thoughts are on its Data Link, navigation and sensors which will be attacked through spoofing/meaconing/jammed/malicious information intrusion and all the attempts of enemy to break the communication link between the operator and the drone as it travels deep into the enemy territory.

 

[Zulfiqar]

I get your drift. While you are implying the mission capability of drone which could go the distance and has multi mission capability, my thoughts are on its Data Link, navigation and sensors which will be attacked through spoofing/meaconing/jammed/malicious information intrusion and all the attempts of enemy to break the communication link between the operator and the drone as it travels deep into the enemy territory.

View attachment 607688

Something to counter it when it is not cloudy. Perhaps the chinese can sell something similar down the liine.


General Atomics Aeronautical Systems has successfully tested on the ground a space laser communication system that it intends to use to securely transfer data between its MQ-9 Reaper unmanned air vehicle (UAV) and satellites.

From an optical observatory located on Tenerife in the Canary Islands in the Atlantic Ocean, the company’s Airborne Laser Communication System recently established a link with a satellite in geo-synchronous Earth orbit, it says on 20 February. The test was done in partnership with Tesat-Spacecom using that company’s GEO Laser Communication Terminal, the LCT 135.

“This was the first demonstration of an air-to-space lasercom system with size, weight and power that is compatible with a medium-altitude, long-endurance [UAV],” says General Atomics.

The company says it used internal funds over the past five years to develop the laser communications system. Using a laser, instead of a microwave broadcast such as Ku-band, creates a lower probability that an adversary could intercept or detect a signal being sent or received by an MQ-9.

“This test was a critical step towards enabling our aircraft with a high-bandwidth communication system that cannot be jammed or detected by an adversary,” says Linden Blue, chief executive officer of General Atomics. “[Airborne Laser Communication System] allows a new generation of high-performance sensors by breaking the data bottleneck of current [radio frequency] SATCOM technology.”

General Atomics says its laser has 300 times the data-carrying capacity of conventional radio frequency SATCOM systems. The Airborne Laser Communication System will also be able to operate as a gateway to the US military’s Joint Aerial Network for forward-deployed forces, says the company.

The new laser communications systems comes as the US Air Force is pushing forward the development of its Advanced Battle Management System, a sort of internet-of-things network that is supposed to enable faster and closer collaboration between aircraft, UAVs satellites, tanks and ships.

Additionally, Pentagon’s creation of the Space Force in December 2019 was partly intended to increase the USA’s investment in space-based communication.

https://www.flightglobal.com/milita...-communication-system-for-mq-9/136859.article

 

[Signalian]

Something to counter it when it is not cloudy. Perhaps the chinese can sell something similar down the liine.


General Atomics Aeronautical Systems has successfully tested on the ground a space laser communication system that it intends to use to securely transfer data between its MQ-9 Reaper unmanned air vehicle (UAV) and satellites.

From an optical observatory located on Tenerife in the Canary Islands in the Atlantic Ocean, the company’s Airborne Laser Communication System recently established a link with a satellite in geo-synchronous Earth orbit, it says on 20 February. The test was done in partnership with Tesat-Spacecom using that company’s GEO Laser Communication Terminal, the LCT 135.

“This was the first demonstration of an air-to-space lasercom system with size, weight and power that is compatible with a medium-altitude, long-endurance [UAV],” says General Atomics.

The company says it used internal funds over the past five years to develop the laser communications system. Using a laser, instead of a microwave broadcast such as Ku-band, creates a lower probability that an adversary could intercept or detect a signal being sent or received by an MQ-9.

“This test was a critical step towards enabling our aircraft with a high-bandwidth communication system that cannot be jammed or detected by an adversary,” says Linden Blue, chief executive officer of General Atomics. “[Airborne Laser Communication System] allows a new generation of high-performance sensors by breaking the data bottleneck of current [radio frequency] SATCOM technology.”

General Atomics says its laser has 300 times the data-carrying capacity of conventional radio frequency SATCOM systems. The Airborne Laser Communication System will also be able to operate as a gateway to the US military’s Joint Aerial Network for forward-deployed forces, says the company.

The new laser communications systems comes as the US Air Force is pushing forward the development of its Advanced Battle Management System, a sort of internet-of-things network that is supposed to enable faster and closer collaboration between aircraft, UAVs satellites, tanks and ships.

Additionally, Pentagon’s creation of the Space Force in December 2019 was partly intended to increase the USA’s investment in space-based communication.

https://www.flightglobal.com/milita...-communication-system-for-mq-9/136859.article

Laser communication is a big thing for satellite comm since laser is hard to jam and one of the methods is physical obstruction. However, aligning the laser itself is a tremendous task on its own. Its a very reliable form of data transfer.

 

[Zulfiqar]

Laser communication is a big thing for satellite comm since laser is hard to jam and one of the methods is physical obstruction. However, aligning the laser itself is a tremendous task on its own. Its a very reliable form of data transfer.

Further, it can be possibly used for line of sight communication with mother ship for USVs.

This is also something that MTC/PN can work on as force multipliers in lower sea states.

"The JARI-USV is armed with different weapons systems, including a foredeck-mounted remote weapon station armed with a 30 mm cannon and laser-guided rockets pod, four-cell vertical launch systems (VLSs) for small surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) mounted amidships, as well as a 324 mm torpedo launchers."

https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...w-jari-usv-armed-unmanned-surface-vessel.html

 

[Riz]

Today i saw one Burraq and one big size UCAV harrowing over my head... Will not disclose the location but it felt good