Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

It's a big news. BTW how does Pakistan manages these projects with respect to our economy performance. it cannot be justify. JFT ongoing. JC10 coming Now 5th gen with turkey

Morning shows the day....

If you want to get a job done find a busy person....

If Pak can manage the nuclear bombs despite the open threat of making an example out of her by Kissinger - the personification of Iblis the Habis - she can manage to support the TFX program too....

Or may be many are not aware of Pakistan-Turkey strategic rapprochement since long. It may be about done it earlier and told later.

My beard doesn't know what's inside my head - Fatih Sultan Mehmet Han

 

[Corax]

Seems like the PAF identified enough of an overlap in design and performance parameters between the FGFA and the TFX in order to justify pooling resources and collaborating on a 'PAF specific' version. Why spend time, money, and resources on a new design when most of the R&D has already been done? The 'collaboration' from hereon could be to implement PAF specific requirements, especially in terms of potential future weapons, avionics, radar, etc. The elephant in the room is the powerplant, and we'll need to see what comes from the collaboration between TAI and RR in that regards, as well as potential restrictions and risks associated with western avionics (radar?) and weapons.

It's interesting to note that at one point the British and TAI were talking about joint development and production of the TFX, and adopting it in the RAF, but that idea has since been superseded by the Tempest programme. Consequently, I wouldn't rule out some overlap between the Tempest and TFX either.

They key points in my view will be radar/avionics, weapons, and powerplant. The radar could be an in-house development at PAC under the Azm umbrella, given the recent news in that regard, in addition to A2A and other weapons.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Only Hurdle for PAF are engines

PAF can use the Chinese made engines since it has given clearance for them for its prime fighter J-10s....

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

It sort of feels like Project Azm has been made too big to fail with all of the money poured into, at least, the infrastructure. Sure the local FGFA design may not be pursued but I believe everything else will be pursued and there is a strong desire to develop an honest-to-God aerospace industry instead of a singular factory that makes a jet and a trainer. The too big to fail means that it will survive no matter how much we logically think it should end. This would be excellent because this is exactly the kind of commitment that you need for giving birth to an industry. @kursed @PanzerKiel

However, I've been wrong before and this could end up being a giant waste of money to make buildings. I certainly hope not.

I'm not worried about any of the infrastructure. If the PAF rolls AZM into TFX, then either AvRID/PAC would use those facilities to support TFX, or TAI will buy those sites as part of an offset agreement (to carry out Pakistan's side of the work). None of that capacity is blocker, IMHO. If there's anything useful, it'll roll into TFX or some other key program.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

I'm not worried about any of the infrastructure. If the PAF rolls AZM into TFX, then either AvRID/PAC would use those facilities to support TFX, or TAI will buy those sites as part of an offset agreement (to carry out Pakistan's side of the work). None of that capacity is blocker, IMHO. If there's anything useful, it'll roll into TFX or some other key program.

PAC means the Chinese connections which are the products of Pak's 7 decades of selfless hard work.....

 

[Riz]

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

View attachment 817638

May I suggest: TEK MILLET IKI DEVLET - ONE NATION TWO STATES....

 

[Ghessan]

Big question is engine, would Turkey able to develop one and that also in given timeframe, otherwise on what grounds did Pakistan decide to go that route?
That would be interesting to know.

 

[Corax]

I'm not worried about any of the infrastructure. If the PAF rolls AZM into TFX, then either AvRID/PAC would use those facilities to support TFX, or TAI will buy those sites as part of an offset agreement (to carry out Pakistan's side of the work). None of that capacity is blocker, IMHO. If there's anything useful, it'll roll into TFX or some other key program.

Not to mention that production infrastructure will also be needed. I think any PAF version of the TFX will be manufactured in Pakistan, especially if we're looking at significant numbers.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Most obvious contribution by Pakistan will be bring economies of scale. Pakistan, if this news is true, might eventually order 100+ jets, which brings many dividends for TAI & Turkey.

As per the TAI boss, he has now 5K engineers working in various projects. He wants to raise it to 10K strength ASAP to keep the promises. Pak has a huge pool of fresh eng grads who know English well....

All fresh grads go through a rigorous training program which culminates in "class" projects to develop a UAV at the least....

LM has 50K engineers in its payroll....

 

[NA71]

Big question is engine, would Turkey able to develop one and that also in given timeframe, otherwise on what grounds did Pakistan decide to go that route?
That would be interesting to know.

For engine ....only one trusted source - China ...with Pakistan as project partner ...chances of western engine is now further reduced.

 

[dBSPL]

View attachment 817638

DEMİR KARDEŞLER = IRON BROTHERS

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

It sort of feels like Project Azm has been made too big to fail with all of the money poured into, at least, the infrastructure. Sure the local FGFA design may not be pursued but I believe everything else will be pursued and there is a strong desire to develop an honest-to-God aerospace industry instead of a singular factory that makes a jet and a trainer. The too big to fail means that it will survive no matter how much we logically think it should end. This would be excellent because this is exactly the kind of commitment that you need for giving birth to an industry. @kursed @PanzerKiel

However, I've been wrong before and this could end up being a giant waste of money to make buildings. I certainly hope not.

The surest way to fail is not to try at the first place! As for Turkey, failure isn't an option...

 

[dBSPL]

The F110-GE-129 will be used during the development phase. There are some important reasons for choosing this engine:

1. It is one of the engines with the highest dry weight and engine diameter in its class. It can be expected that the interface of the domestic engine will have similar, but this volume will provide great convenience in different engine integration.

2. TEI had produced this engine under license in Turkiye for many many years with a very high domestic contribution margin, and the technical infrastructure of the Air Force has been familiar with all the details and maintenance procedures of this engine for decades.

3. This engine is like a tank. It is known for a very successful design and very few technical problems, with much longer periodic maintenance intervals than its counterparts.

4. It is one of the models with the most widespread network in the world in terms of engine spare parts and equipment, and there is a very serious stock in this sense in Turkiye.

///

Regarding the domestic engine program, the Phase-2 tender has been announced. The developments on the subject are included in the related thread.

 

[Ghessan]

For engine ....only one trusted source - China ...with Pakistan as project partner ...chances of western engine is now further reduced.

Would that work? Turkey and China collaborate for PAF of their engine requirement? Also how Turkey is going to induct those within their own air force since they are not looking into a western engine for TFX.
If it is announced now, it would be extremely detailed, long and back to back several discussions between the two including engine and other aspects.
We may have to wait for details.