Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

[The Eagle]

I would like to emphasize again. I didn’t expect or mean in my post “a Pakistani design alone and alone being built.”

What I was hoping for was a Pakistani design with collaboration and technical assistance from Turkey (and maybe China) on subsystems and fixing any issues that would have risen during the process.

Kind of a Pakistan led and friendly country assisted program. But if we have taken the TFX route it’s a different path. Let’s see….

ACM Sohail Aman said back in 2019, (Available in the OP)

"We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them. For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made.
We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft."

To lead such a huge project, one has to look as where from we are starting. What I am trying to say that it was never the promise of leading such a project. Collaboration & collaboration was said every time in view of facts & ground realities. For example, we bought Milgem for Navy and at the same time, Turkiye is helping in regards to ToT and so we are now working on Jinnah Class design in Pakistan.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

We've been talking about this for years but now everyone's suddenly losing their minds, I don't know why.

Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

this is surprise to 99.9% of ppl.. re-open the thread You can open a new one but wait until Foxtrox go to sleep or working....

defence.pk

Pakistan can invest money, promise to buy a more strike-oriented version of the TFX. Pakistan can have workshare agreements. Don't expect Pakistan to actively contribute to major design.

This would make the most sense IMO. I think a strike-based TFX would come much later -- like mid-to-late 2030s -- but it would create more time for Turkey to develop its indigenous engine. Moreover, the PAF can probably keep closing capability gaps with additional J-10CEs and JF-17 B/Block-3-based variants (especially if the latter's slated to use a new engine).

 

[Falcon26]

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD , what can be Pakistan's role in this programme?

Most obvious contribution by Pakistan will be bring economies of scale. Pakistan, if this news is true, might eventually order 100+ jets, which brings many dividends for TAI & Turkey.

 

[JamD]

This would make the most sense IMO. I think a strike-based TFX would come much later -- like mid-to-late 2030s -- but it would create more time for Turkey to develop its indigenous engine. Moreover, the PAF can probably keep closing capability gaps with additional J-10CEs and JF-17 B/Block-3-based variants (especially if the latter's slated to use a new engine).

The most likely story.

Copying post from other thread as requested. This is as straight from the horse's mouth that it can be. With that being said, I'm just a dude on the web.

Just to make it crystal clear for everyone here: currently Pakistan is ANALYZING TFX in order to decide if Pakistan wants to buy in or not. This is my most recent information. This should tell you about our level of involvement in TFX. I know Kotil's statement has caused/will cause a firestorm on twitter and this forum - probably his intent too - but he is only being a good salesman and generating buzz. Dr. Riaz is having to play along lol.

EDIT: At the risk of adding to the firestorm, things may have changed from analysis to the decision to join (my info above being out of date), which would mean Kotil's statement is more factual than I think.

Decision to join meaning what is in the above post by @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

 

[Bilal.]

The most likely story.

Copying post from other thread as requested. This is as straight from the horse's mouth that it can be. With that being said, I'm just a dude on the web.

Decision to join meaning what is in the above post by @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

So the design that was initiated in 2017 as per the MODP will not be pursued, at least for now.

 

[dBSPL]

This would make the most sense IMO. I think a strike-based TFX would come much later -- like mid-to-late 2030s -- but it would create more time for Turkey to develop its indigenous engine. Moreover, the PAF can probably keep closing capability gaps with additional J-10CEs and JF-17 B/Block-3-based variants (especially if the latter's slated to use a new engine).

A little anecdote on this topic: The aircraft has undergone a design change to carry the SOM-J and some other heavy air-to-ground weapon systems at its internal weapon stations. From this point of view, we can say that the design of the aircraft has evolved towards a multi-role structure rather than just an air superiority system. In fact, Temel Kotil insists that their aim is to produce an aircraft between the F35 and the F-22, as the scope of flexibility. My guess is: up to block-3, air to ground requirements will be met to a large extent, and with block-4, full operational capacity will be achieved in terms of air-to-air missions.

 

[The Eagle]

This would make the most sense IMO. I think a strike-based TFX would come much later -- like mid-to-late 2030s -- but it would create more time for Turkey to develop its indigenous engine. Moreover, the PAF can probably keep closing capability gaps with additional J-10CEs and JF-17 B/Block-3-based variants (especially if the latter's slated to use a new engine).

In the meantime, in-house design can be continued till we develop in areas like economy at first and then come up with our own NGF.

“A lightweight single engine 5th Gen fighter, possibly using same engine that in twin configuration powers the FC-31, is reportedly also under development to serve as a successor to JF-17 on export markets with the PAF expected to be its primary client.”

That program could be used to influence with in-house design. Just saying.

 

[JamD]

So the design that was initiated in 2017 as per the MODP will not be pursued.

IMHO No.

 

[fo20]

yes

The key word is "Collaboration" and if you listen to the above program carefully you will understand what level of collaboration is on-going......

Yes, I agree with your theory

 

[The Eagle]

@NA71 please be kind and do not spam threads with these kind of youtube click baiting videos. Have your say or at-least bring some credible source to share.

Regards,

 

[NA71]

@NA71 please be kind and do not spam threads with these kind of youtube click baiting videos. Have your say or at-least bring some credible source to share.

Regards,

ohh OK....pure excitement in this very age.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

Now as PAF has decided to join TFX and according to credible members,our involvement will be limited to economies of scale only,
So now PAC and AvRID should shift their focus towards UCAVs and Avionics.They should indeginize JF 17 as much as possible.AWC should come with home grown BVR solutions.
But i wonder what will be the use of all the aviation city like buildings we were/are constructing?

 

[JamD]

Now as PAF has decided to join TFX and according to credible members,our involvement will be limited to economies of scale only,
So now PAC and AvRID should shift their focus towards UCAVs and Avionics.They should indeginize JF 17 as much as possible.AWC should come with home grown BVR solutions.
But i wonder what will be the use of all the aviation city like buildings we were/are constructing?

It sort of feels like Project Azm has been made too big to fail with all of the money poured into, at least, the infrastructure. Sure the local FGFA design may not be pursued but I believe everything else will be pursued and there is a strong desire to develop an honest-to-God aerospace industry instead of a singular factory that makes a jet and a trainer. The too big to fail means that it will survive no matter how much we logically think it should end. This would be excellent because this is exactly the kind of commitment that you need for giving birth to an industry. @kursed @PanzerKiel

However, I've been wrong before and this could end up being a giant waste of money to make buildings. I certainly hope not.

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

@Zarvan so this is the western aircraft which was being talked about in j10c thread. Suspense turning into a Lil disappointment because of the expected timelines.

 

[dBSPL]

where is the engine going to come form? and what about armaments? can turks make BVR as capable as meteor or PL15?

As far as I know, three different BVR air-to-air missile projects are ongoing under the responsibility of Tübitak Sage. The first of these, Gökdoğan, started in 2013, and its evulation tests continue at 401st test fleet command. The request in the first phase was +65km engagement range. With Phase-2, this range will reach 100km. First block missile is expected to be included in the active inventory in 2022.

Some of Gökdoğan's ability set:
• Solid-state active radar seeker technology
• Smart guidance with fire and forget
• Enhanced countermeasure under intensive EW environment and guidance to the jamming source
• Ability to update target information with data-link
• Ability to shoot from any angle and lock onto multiple targets
• Lockable after fire

The other project is Gökhan, ramjet BVR AAM. Tübitak Sage GM has actually lifted the secrecy on this project by announcing it last year. Fire tests will begin in 2023.