Pakistan takes major action against Jamaat-ud-Dawaa camp

[Flintlock]

Ohhh for (to whom ever you pray since they are too many and you cant pick one) sake did you even bothered to read the post it was replied too.

I did as a matter of fact.

 

[IceCold]

AM,
You read a triffle too much in the assertion of the word "average".
I didn't mean that the average Pakistani citizen solicits to the carnage that these scumbags do. I meant, just as today, India's teeming millions, who have for all these years sheepishly kept quite at numerous govt. and police/intelligence failures, are raising their voice and questioning their accountibility, its time that the average Pakistani citizen offers voice to their latent anger and intolerance against these marauding militants. That's the only thing that will discourage others from alligning to the radicals and their causes, whatsoever they are. You see, there are still some of us who find these kind of out of the box assertions as "lectures".

Out of the box you may like to call it since it suits the indian flavor, but do we need assertions, no thanks, we as a nation know whats in the interest of Pakistan and certainly dont need an advice from an Indian on that or perhaps how we should raise our voice and against whom.

 

[IceCold]

The problem still remains that Pakistan's intelligence agencies had a hand in planning this attack. (According to Indian investigators, and some US media reports)

The only logical solution is to either drastically change the mindset of the ISI or to destroy it.

Get it over with, its not happening in this life time of yours, not happening in the 7th either.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Step in the right direction. I hope it continues. And lets not kid ourselves here-Pakistan has HAD to act because it cannot be seen not acting by the rest of the world.

The eyes of the world woudl be on any nation in this position. However, given our past links with the suspected group, there was indeed more scrutiny of Pakistan's actions related to investigating this act.

That does not in itself by any means suggest Pakistan would not have acted had the US not been involved. Innuendo and speculation do not substitute for facts, and the facts are that Pakistan assured cooperation and investigation in the immediate aftermath of the attacks, and has so far held to its word, while India has been decidedly uncooperative.

 

[Flintlock]

Get it over with, its not happening in this life time of yours, not happening in the 7th either.

Oh I'm quite sure its well beyond India's capabilities to do that.

But then I'm not looking at India at all.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The problem still remains that Pakistan's intelligence agencies had a hand in planning this attack. (According to Indian investigators, and some US media reports)

The only logical solution is to either drastically change the mindset of the ISI or to destroy it.

Since many other reports quoting the ubiquitous 'sources' in the Western media have pointed out that despite past links with the LeT, the ISI does not appear to have had any role in this particular incident, I would say that there is no real evidence or concern regarding the involvement of Pakistani agencies in this act.

There is a concern, that has existed since 911, that some rogue elements sympathetic to the extremists exist, but no agency can be insulated a hundred percent, and what is important is to act against any such elements within the establishment whenever their actions come to light.

Your whole argument of 'mindset' betrays a complete lack of understanding of the structure of the ISI, despite it having been pointed out several times in this forum. The ISI does not have an omnipresent cabal whose 'mindset' you can change. The staff is primarily comprised of members of the military who are seconded to the organization, and are rotated typically on 3 to five year terms. The DG is routinely changed.

The organization functions as an arm and under the control of the establishment. The reforms it needs are more along the lines of the deactivation of the political wing etc.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Give it up already. Everyone and their uncle knows that the PA plays along as long as it suits them, and they take over when things aren't going as per their liking.

The civilian government can do zilch to stop the army taking over if they feel like doing so.

That would be true in any country with a powerful military. No government can stand in the way if an Army decides to take control.

The issue is whether or not the leadership of the military believes that military interventions are justified or not, and whether they get support from any of their commanders to accomplish it.

This military leadership at this moment in time seems to believe that the country is best served by elected officials, and that democracy needs continuity to succeed. Whether this attitude is ingrained into the military now, only time will tell.

 

[Flintlock]

Since many other reports quoting the ubiquitous 'sources' in the Western media have pointed out that despite past links with the LeT, the ISI does not appear to have had any role in this particular incident, I would say that there is no real evidence or concern regarding the involvement of Pakistani agencies in this act.

Well, I guess only time will tell that. The US would be reluctant to openly point fingers at the ISI, unlike India, since they are trying to cooperate with those guys at the same time.

There is a concern, that has existed since 911, that some rogue elements sympathetic to the extremists exist, but no agency can be insulated a hundred percent, and what is important is to act against any such elements with the establishment whenever their actions come to light.

I think there's sufficient evidence that the policy of the organization itself was to encourage extremists not only in Afghanistan, but in Kashmir as well.

The Hamid Gul episode is only the latest of such indicators. The ex-head of the ISI talking about Zionist plots!

Your whole argument of 'mindset' betrays a complete lack of understanding of the structure of the ISI, despite it having been pointed out several times in this forum. The ISI does not have an omnipresent cabal whose 'mindset' you can change. The staff is primarily comprised of members of the military who are seconded to the organization, and are rotated typically on 3 to five year terms. The DG is routinely changed.

How does that matter? The Indian Army's officers are routinely retired and the Chief of Staff changes every 3 years or so. Even then, there is a certain mindset and culture, a sense of purpose that remains static even though the rank and file keep changing.

The very fact that 4 ex-heads of the ISI are being accused of having terror links should indicate that the support for extremism is a systemic problem.

The organization functions as an arm and under the control of the establishment. The reforms it needs are more along the lines of the deactivation of the political wing etc.

The political wing concerns only the internal matters of Pakistan. It has no bearing on the policies of the ISI regarding the support of extremist groups seeking to wage Jehad in Kashmir.

 

[Flintlock]

That would be true in any country with a powerful military. No government can stand in the way if an Army decides to take control.

I'm sorry, but no, it wouldn't be true in any country. I won't spend time on long paras about the loyalties of soldiers, the hierarchy of command, the source of the soldiers' paychecks and rations, who holds the keys to the arms and ammo, and fuel. [/quOTE]

The issue is whether or not the leadership of the military believes that military interventions are justified or not, and whether they get support from any of their commanders to accomplish it.

That is the situation in Pakistan. Not so in other countries.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Well, I guess only time will tell that. The US would be reluctant to openly point fingers at the ISI, unlike India, since they are trying to cooperate with those guys at the same time.

Again, its just more speculation that fits a particular bias - as an arm of the Pakistani state and military, the ISI had nothing to gain from the Mumbai attacks.

I think there's sufficient evidence that the policy of the organization itself was to encourage extremists not only in Afghanistan, but in Kashmir as well.

The Hamid Gul episode is only the latest of such indicators. The ex-head of the ISI talking about Zionist plots!

There is also sufficient evidence indicating the role of the CIA and other US institutions in arming and supporting violent militias in Latin America and elsewhere around the globe to further US objectives, including in Afghanistan. That covert support means nothing. Hamid Gul's rants and actions after retirement are in his personal capacity, not as DG ISI.

How does that matter? The Indian Army's officers are routinely retired and the Chief of Staff changes every 3 years or so. Even then, there is a certain mindset and culture, a sense of purpose that remains static even though the rank and file keep changing.

The very fact that 4 ex-heads of the ISI are being accused of having terror links should indicate that the support for extremism is a systemic problem.

The sense of purpose that the ISI retains is derived from the Army - safeguarding the nation. That sense of purpose, other than those ideologicaly poisoned by religious extremism, remains one of discipline and professionalism and loyalty to the institution of the Army and the country. That 'mindset' of loyalty, discipline and professionalism would require all but the rogues to support official policy.

Again, what people do in their personal capacity does not reflect on the ISI, and I must remind you that all we have currently are mere allegations of guilt. Secondly, many of these people were intimately involved with the groups mentioned when it was not taboo to be involved with them, and they may have developed relationships that they carried into their personal lives after retirement, and therefore continued supporting them.

The political wing concerns only the internal matters of Pakistan. It has no bearing on the policies of the ISI regarding the support of extremist groups seeking to wage Jehad in Kashmir.

It doesn't affect external operations, but it is an important part of the restructuring process to ensure the agency focuses primarily on the tasks it is designed for, which are established by the Pakistani leadership.

 

[fuzon_tauheed]

Greetings to all..

Its not surprising to see some mix reaction to that action taken by the Pak Army. Instead of discussing positive things about it some have started to wage war of words just to prove nothing. India should play positive role with its media to project good things about Pakistan specially after this crack down. I know some Indians consider it as a major diplomatic win. Here Pakistan and Pakistanis should not feel inferior or bad about it because some day they had to take this action. And please don't forget the present financail crisis, no one wants any armed conflict in this region any more. Three wars are sufficient enough for us to understand that the only way to make ourself prosper, is avoid any tensions. Because poor people of both country are not interested in any arm race, their lives are already hardly hit by us and politicians. People of these two geat nations should also realize their mistakes of choosing those curropt politicians or accepting Generals as the head of their country.

I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings here, because I strongly believe that it should always be 'India with Pakistan' NOT 'India against Pakistan'.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I'm sorry, but no, it wouldn't be true in any country. I won't spend time on long paras about the loyalties of soldiers, the hierarchy of command, the source of the soldiers' paychecks and rations, who holds the keys to the arms and ammo, and fuel.

You would have to expound upon your answer, perhaps in a separate thread, but without that I see no reason as to why any military whose leadership was in agreement could not overthrow a civilian government.

That is the situation in Pakistan. Not so in other countries.

That would be the situation in any country were the military to take over.

And as I said 'This military leadership at this moment in time seems to believe that the country is best served by elected officials, and that democracy needs continuity to succeed. Whether this attitude is ingrained into the military now, only time will tell.'

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pakistan proposes sending delegation to New Delhi​

By Iftikhar A. Khan
Monday, 08 Dec, 2008 | 09:15 PM PST |


ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Monday proposed sending a high-level delegation to New Delhi ‘as soon as possible’ to help India investigate the Mumbai attacks, the foreign ministry here said.

The proposal came from Pakistani foreign secretary Salman Bashir when he met India's high commissioner Satyabrata Pal in Islamabad,AFP reported.

‘While reiterating Pakistani suggestion for joint investigations, the foreign secretary proposed that a high-level delegation from Pakistan may visit New Delhi as soon as possible,’ a foreign ministry statement said.

‘The high commissioner was informed that Pakistan had initiated investigations on its own into the allegations that have surfaced concerning involvement of any individual or entity in Pakistan in the Mumbai attacks,’ the statement added.

Meanwhile, the Defence Committee of the Cabinet, with Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani in the chair, reviewed the regional security situation following the recent terrorist attacks in Mumbai here in Islamabad.

The meeting was attended by Defence Minister Ch. Ahmad Mukhtar, Foreign Affairs Minister Makhdoom Shah Mehmood Qureshi, Adviser to PM on Interior Rehman Malik, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee General Tariq Majid and other forces chiefs.

The committee reiterated Pakistan’s resolve not to allow its soil to be used for any kind of terrorist activity anywhere in the region or around the world.
The committee instructed all departments to continue investigation based on information shared between India and Pakistan, and other allies. It was agreed that all actions taken will be within the ambit of Pakistani law.

Official sources said the committee rejected as baseless the allegations that Pakistan had been used to carry out the Mumbai blasts and stressed that the blame-game should be brought to an end now as tension between the two South Asian nuclear powers would not serve the interests of any country.

The committee was of the view that the security and stability of South Asia is in the fundamental interests of the people of this region. It is therefore imperative to proactively defuse the prevailing tensions.

The committee expressed its complete confidence in the ability of the armed forces to defend the nation need be.

DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Pakistan proposes sending delegation to New Delhi

 

[Awesome]

very stupid move from the pakistani government
why is pakistan performing actions to please the enemy?
they might be called terrorists by india and rest of the world but they showed mumbai what IHK goes through every day so in kashmiri eyes they are freedom fighters

They are also officially declared as enemies of Pakistan.

Refer to Musharraf's January 6th, 2002 Speech. It was reiterated by this government too.

 

[Awesome]

Thanks Pakistan.

Damn I was just observing the whole thread and I was like not one soul expressed any gratitude! Good stuff! You're welcome.