Pakistan snubs Cameron visit

[UnitedPak]

dont blame the Bhartis they have a genuine grievance for loosing a large chunk of Indian Sub continent that became Pakistan...
they have come to terms with Pakistan more than the British..

Irfan bhai, since when did Bharatis ever own the subcontinent or the Indus region to have "lost" it? Unless they consider themselves a continuation of the British colonial empire I cant understand these "grievances".

 

[ares]

Irfan bhai, since when did Bharatis ever own the subcontinent or the Indus region to have "lost" it? Unless they consider themselves a continuation of the British colonial empire I cant understand these "grievances".

Though we do grieve the loss of people's lives and "lives of people" and the fact we have earned a constant irritant on our back, which was the direct fallout of decision to divide the country.
But the fact is, even before British this entire region was under one empire.

 

[GentlemanObserver]

I beg to differ on this....As per me this is not good diplomacy....UK is still a power(economic and military) and a UNSC permanent member....Yes they have a dependency on Pak for WOT but that does not mean they can be allowed to slide with India for good, no???

Mind it i do agree that Pakistan is supposed to send strong signals that Cameroon remarks were not liked but at end of the day diplomatic tools should be used to increase the number of friends you have, no???

Deckingraj,

Sir/Madam,

I respect your opinion but i must disagree.

As per me this is not good diplomacy

Oh but it is, they need US more then WE need them, DFID/UKAID, SOCA, GCHQ have very little impact in Pak then the US or China.

UK is still a power(economic and military) and a UNSC permanent member....

Right so let me check the last time they needed Pakistan was when they wanted to draft the last SOCA report in 2004 or the expatration of British Citizens in duress and counter human trafficking in 2008 and 2009.

Overall DFID and UKAID's intervention and mandate in Pakistan has not changed much since 2005, that is saying a LOT...

Yes they have a dependency on Pak for WOT but that does not mean they can be allowed to slide with India for good, no???

They are more dependant on us the the GWOT, without us SOCA has no way of keeping tabs on human trafficking and money laundering in S.Asia East of Delhi.

Besdies this is not about snubbing the UK, this is about snubbing that halfwit toff cameron who treated our leaders like the bread-basket of South Asia.

Mind it i do agree that Pakistan is supposed to send strong signals that Cameroon remarks were not liked but at end of the day diplomatic tools should be used to increase the number of friends you have, no???

The Pakistani's are not stupid, have you been keeping up with the papers recently? His popularity has taken a beating due to the U turn on student tuition fees, the scrapping of more then 50,000 Police jobs, the austerity measures that have left the poorest of UK citizens out of pocket.

His collation government is already starting to crack with Nick Clegg begging his party members to clinch on to the hope of a "fix" to the dire situation the UK is in.

Mind it i do agree that Pakistan is supposed to send strong signals that Cameroon remarks were not liked

So we do that by asking him to "tag" our PM on what is essentially a visit to Afghanistan, is that our "WORTH". No thanks...

The signal is crystal clear this time and i for one support our PM on this decision. He has done 100% the right thing.

As Isac Goldberg once said: “Diplomacy is to do and say the nastiest things in the nicest way.”

Perhaps DC can heed this message and remember he is dealing with a nation state and not some pathetic chav's down the estate in hackney.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Though we do grieve the loss of people's lives and "lives of people" and the fact we have earned a constant irritant on our back, which was the direct fallout of decision to divide the country.
But the fact is, even before British this entire region was under one empire.

There was no 'country' to divide - the two nations in fact came into existence in 1947. Before that there was a British administered colony, and before that a motley of Princely States, Kingdoms and fiefdoms ruled by various Maharajah's and what have you.

The territories and peoples of Pakistan were part of empires arising out of the West as well as empires arising out of the East - historically there is no 'One Empire' that Pakistan was solely part of.

BTW, Pakistan too earned a constant irritant on our back with the creation of the modern Indian State.

 

[ares]

There was no 'country' to divide - the two nations in fact came into existence in 1947. Before that there was a British administered colony, and before that a motley of Princely States, Kingdoms and fiefdoms ruled by various Maharajah's and what have you.

The territories and peoples of Pakistan were part of empires arising out of the West as well as empires arising out of the East - historically there is no 'One Empire' that Pakistan was solely part of.

These are the maps of Mauryan empire, Gupta Empire , Mughal Empire and British India.

Barring the regions to the extreme south, the present day Pakistan and present day India have historically been the part of the same empires. Though they may different local rulers(whose territories were constantly changing) but they all swore allegiance to the same emperor.

BTW, Pakistan too earned a constant irritant on our back with the creation of the modern Indian State.

What can I say, you wanted this partition, more than us..you should thought of the consequences of such a bloody partition.

 

[Durran3]

I am glad that Gilani made a stand but lets call spade a spade... Pakistan does have terrorist camps so how does this make Cameron the bad guy for basically speaking the truth that pretty much EVERYONE knows?

 

[GentlemanObserver]

I am glad that Gilani made a stand but lets call spade a spade... Pakistan does have terrorist camps so how does this make Cameron the bad guy for basically speaking the truth that pretty much EVERYONE knows?

Pakistan has terrorist camps, lets not forget how they came about.

Lets also not forget what we have sacrificed in our fight to rid the region of this menace, lets not also forget that we are the "biggest" victims "empirically" of terrorism.

Lip Service is lip Service.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

At press conference in Presidential Palace in Kabul, Cameron failed to repeat his controversial remark that Pakistan faced “both ways on terror.” He hailed Pakistan’s “progress” in clearing up terrorism camps in Swat valley.

He's not in India and the Afghan's don't have billions of dollars worth of business and military deals to offer, of course he 'failed to repeat his controversial remarks'.

This is a good indication of what I said earlier. Bharatis get a hard on when anything is said against Pakistan. They throw some important considerations out of the window later due to all the emotions. In this case, the important considerations are whether these words will result in anything practical. And from the looks of things, no. They only say it to please the bharatis while they are in India, and then normal services resume not long after they leave India.

dont blame the Bhartis they have a genuine grievance for loosing a large chunk of Indian Sub continent that became Pakistan...
they have come to terms with Pakistan more than the British..

these cunning rascals are the most deceiving, two faced and grudging people you will come across.. they never ever accepted Pakistan's creation as it was not in their grand plans..
although their past glory is .. well a thing of a past but they try to copy their bigger cousins across the atlantic and try to talk big here and there.. not sparing a chance to give their dismissive comments about Pakistan but honestly.. no one gives a flying toss to what their prime ministers have to say.

Camoron should have been told that he is not welcome until he appoligize officially. Otherwise we will not be proving him any security or reception and he will be on his own to book a hotel for himself, metro cab from airport and fend his mission.


Ten years down the line the Indians will be crying how the "Pakistani" credit card milked their treasury dry and the western diplomats will laugh over it. Obsession is not healthy by anyways. These days it looks like anyone can close a sale with India by going to New Delhi and bashing Pakistan. We better start demanding our commission out of this now!

Irfan bhai, since when did Bharatis ever own the subcontinent or the Indus region to have "lost" it? Unless they consider themselves a continuation of the British colonial empire I cant understand these "grievances".

Seriously! Grow up guys

You all make it look as if , Disparaging Indians, (here on pdf)and their response being predictable gives you smug feeling , which seems to be blinding you from the facts that concern you.

I know you all are better than that.


Just for a moment ,Subtract India/Indians from the picture/situation.

Ask yourself,is Pakistan's value really dwarfed just because of some trade deals?,which these nations regularly do all over the world?

Isn't Pakistan itself a defence market to these nations?

Isn't Pakistan's role pivotal in War in Afghanistan,on which these nations have invested so much effort?

I credit you all can arrive at the point i'm hinting.

 

[deckingraj]

Deckingraj,

Sir/Madam,

Sir

I respect your opinion but i must disagree.

I can understand that....

Oh but it is, they need US more then WE need them, DFID/UKAID, SOCA, GCHQ have very little impact in Pak then the US or China.

I will go through your rest of post as well but this line gives me an inclination that you are trying to say we don't care what UK thinks/do....No offense but this is very naive view when it comes to diplomacy....As said this reduce your bargaining power even if by a fraction and you don't want to do that....Remember UK used to have good relations with both India and Pak....You would not like to decrease your friends just out of ego...but again these are my views....Pakistani's would know better about Pakistan any given day than me....

Right so let me check the last time they needed Pakistan was when they wanted to draft the last SOCA report in 2004 or the expatration of British Citizens in duress and counter human trafficking in 2008 and 2009. ..Overall DFID and UKAID's intervention and mandate in Pakistan has not changed much since 2005, that is saying a LOT...

When i said powerful i did not mean they have a say in Pakistan foreign policy....However international politics you would need them..This is what i mean by geo-political weight and bargaining power...For example - Pakistan would not like India to get UNSC permanent seat. Now you cannot sit idle and put all your money on China. You will like to do some effort of your own to deny us numbers...More the friends you will have more easily you will be able to achieve your target...Please don't forget they do have a good say in matters pertaining to EU....

Please note the point i am trying to derive here is that thumb rule of good diplomacy is to increase your friends...

They are more dependant on us the the GWOT, without us SOCA has no way of keeping tabs on human trafficking and money laundering in S.Asia East of Delhi.

Besdies this is not about snubbing the UK, this is about snubbing that halfwit toff cameron who treated our leaders like the bread-basket of South Asia.

I am not sure if i followed you here but snubbing the PM of a nation cannot be treated as snubbing a person and not nation..sorry international politics don't work like this....

The Pakistani's are not stupid, have you been keeping up with the papers recently? His popularity has taken a beating due to the U turn on student tuition fees, the scrapping of more then 50,000 Police jobs, the austerity measures that have left the poorest of UK citizens out of pocket.

His collation government is already starting to crack with Nick Clegg begging his party members to clinch on to the hope of a "fix" to the dire situation the UK is in.

Give me an honest reply....Zardari is way unpopular in Pakistan....Obama's popularity has decreased to a larger extent...Does that mean if Zardari/Obama are snubbed by any nation the country will not bother??? Please note the heads are representing the country...when you snub them you are snubbing the country and not the person....

So we do that by asking him to "tag" our PM on what is essentially a visit to Afghanistan, is that our "WORTH". No thanks... The signal is crystal clear this time and i for one support our PM on this decision. He has done 100% the right thing.

As said it is Pakistani's to decide what is right for them. I am just sharing my opinion...Though when Obama was here lot of noises were there for him to visit Pakistan...The idea is how to get the relations back to normal(they doesn't seem to be normal)...Cameroon did offer and Pak rejected...May be this is best for Pakistan's interest though i fail to get the connection....

As Isac Goldberg once said: “Diplomacy is to do and say the nastiest things in the nicest way.”Perhaps DC can heed this message and remember he is dealing with a nation state and not some pathetic chav's down the estate in hackney.

I am afraid but rejecting a visit offered by head of a state like UK might not be the nicest way of passing on the message....once again Cameroon is PM of UK and he has said some very open things about Pakistan while in India...I believe it is in Pakistan's best interest to make him understand the sensitivity of the situation instead of snubbing him....That would be the right diplomacy...Just to give you an example

when Obama was campaigning for US elections he made some comments that would have send shivers down the throats of our diplomat...He connected Kashmir and Pakistan effort in WOT(which from US perspective is right) but then lot of back channel diplomacy was used and message was given in clear and crystal terms....Results were satisfactory....Pakistan should do something similar and snubbing a PM visit can brings some smile but they do have the potential for long term losses....Relations with Israel, Russia are some bad examples that can quoted from Pakistan's foreign office diplomacy....

Note : As said repeatedly these are my personal views. Just trash them if they don't make sense...

Regards...

 

[black_magic pk]

nice move......

he should apologise for what he said

 

[GentlemanObserver]

Sir


I can understand that....


I will go through your rest of post as well but this line gives me an inclination that you are trying to say we don't care what UK thinks/do....No offense but this is very naive view when it comes to diplomacy....As said this reduce your bargaining power even if by a fraction and you don't want to do that....Remember UK used to have good relations with both India and Pak....You would not like to decrease your friends just out of ego...but again these are my views....Pakistani's would know better about Pakistan any given day than me....



When i said powerful i did not mean they have a say in Pakistan foreign policy....However international politics you would need them..This is what i mean by geo-political weight and bargaining power...For example - Pakistan would not like India to get UNSC permanent seat. Now you cannot sit idle and put all your money on China. You will like to do some effort of your own to deny us numbers...More the friends you will have more easily you will be able to achieve your target...Please don't forget they do have a good say in matters pertaining to EU....

Please note the point i am trying to derive here is that thumb rule of good diplomacy is to increase your friends...



I am not sure if i followed you here but snubbing the PM of a nation cannot be treated as snubbing a person and not nation..sorry international politics don't work like this....



Give me an honest reply....Zardari is way unpopular in Pakistan....Obama's popularity has decreased to a larger extent...Does that mean if Zardari/Obama are snubbed by any nation the country will not bother??? Please note the heads are representing the country...when you snub them you are snubbing the country and not the person....



As said it is Pakistani's to decide what is right for them. I am just sharing my opinion...Though when Obama was here lot of noises were there for him to visit Pakistan...The idea is how to get the relations back to normal(they doesn't seem to be normal)...Cameroon did offer and Pak rejected...May be this is best for Pakistan's interest though i fail to get the connection....



I am afraid but rejecting a visit offered by head of a state like UK might not be the nicest way of passing on the message....once again Cameroon is PM of UK and he has said some very open things about Pakistan while in India...I believe it is in Pakistan's best interest to make him understand the sensitivity of the situation instead of snubbing him....That would be the right diplomacy...Just to give you an example

when Obama was campaigning for US elections he made some comments that would have send shivers down the throats of our diplomat...He connected Kashmir and Pakistan effort in WOT(which from US perspective is right) but then lot of back channel diplomacy was used and message was given in clear and crystal terms....Results were satisfactory....Pakistan should do something similar and snubbing a PM visit can brings some smile but they do have the potential for long term losses....Relations with Israel, Russia are some bad examples that can quoted from Pakistan's foreign office diplomacy....

Note : As said repeatedly these are my personal views. Just trash them if they don't make sense...

Regards...

I can understand and respect the merit of your argument but i will respectfully disagree. I know a bit about how the UK has worked with Pakistan, hence i know their "friendship" with Pakistan is even more fickle then the American Alliance with Pakistan.

I would rather have 1 strong friend then 300 fickle friends. Case in point "Israel"...

 

[Tameem]

Also, one thing I am observing these days is that de-hyphenation of India and Pakistan and hyphenation of Afghanistan and Pakistan.

No, Its the other way around India=Afghanistan

 

[deckingraj]

I can understand and respect the merit of your argument but i will respectfully disagree. I know a bit about how the UK has worked with Pakistan, hence i know their "friendship" with Pakistan is even more fickle then the American Alliance with Pakistan.

I would rather have 1 strong friend then 300 fickle friends. Case in point "Israel"...

Point taken....though i am wondering why the hell they are fickle??? I am not trying to say they are saint but it is high time Pakistan should increase her political weight....In international politics it is give and take...Geography alone cannot help pakistan and sooner than later they have to earn their worth....Mind it India was also ignored prior to the economic reforms....Our FM recently made a statement about how x-Fm's had to take appointment and wait for hours before meeting FM's of these western powers....

Anyhow i would love to see a stronger Asia...Europe has done it...Australia and America are well placed...it is time for Asia and hopefully Africa will follow....

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

These are the maps of Mauryan empire, Gupta Empire , Mughal Empire and British India.

...

Barring the regions to the extreme south, the present day Pakistan and present day India have historically been the part of the same empires. Though they may different local rulers(whose territories were constantly changing) but they all swore allegiance to the same emperor.

Nice maps, here are some other ones:

Ghaznavid Empire

Durrani Empire

Or how about these

Just because some regions were part of an empire once upon a time does not make them a nation, otherwise history has seen several empires governing the same territories - why cherry pick just the ones that support a mythical 'Akhand Bharat'?

What can I say, you wanted this partition, more than us..you should thought of the consequences of such a bloody partition.

No, India should have accepted the creation of Pakistan and allowed the people of J&k to exercise their promised right to plebiscite to determine which nation they wished to be a part of.

The creation of Pakistan was not the issue, the attitude of India, especially in terms of continuing occupation and subjugation of J&K and not truly accepting Pakistan, was and has been the issue.

 

[Time Assassin]

HAHAHAHA stupid Cameron, GIVE ME BACK MY MONEY FOR UNIVERSITY YOU FREAK!!!! i didn't vote for a god damn coalition goverment!!!!