Pakistan Seeks Thales Damocles Targeting Pod For JF-17 Aircraft

[ACE OF THE AIR]

I personally think there wont be many modifications in block 3 externally. The nose perhaps to incorporate an AESA, Possibly IRST,Inlet mounted POD designated hardpoint and perhaps a couple more hardpoints( not too sure on that one). The changes will mostly be under the skin.
I can't disagree with your assessment of J10 vs F16s but there are many more factors to it than the simplistic approach you have adopted.
Things to consider:-
A). In the presence of infrastructure to support 110 fighters does one get another fighter with no infrastructure.
B)The cost of training and setting up infrastructure.
C) The maturity of the product and its utility within the planning of PAF.
D) How much time it takes you to develop the tactics with the plane and train up the manpower to look after and fly the bird
E) What advantages it gives you over your adversary.
F) Standing at the cusp of generation change which generation do you bet on .
G) Threat assesment and your financial flexibility.
More than anything it is the last factor which gives us headache. Even chinese products with increasing complexity are becoming too expensive for us. In a situation of fiscal inadaptness one cannot be lapsidaisical in decision making. For those who malign the 16s for whatever reasons, I always say that if a mistake was made it was in the 80s not now. So unless you can forsee the future there is no way you can malign the procurements now.
A

There was also talk regarding increasing the fuel capacity and adding more weapons bays by rearranging the landing gear. Do you have any news regarding these changes.

No. The electronics used in Su3o are western avionics. We integrated them. Russia initially told theirs were good enough. We did it without their help.
Even PakFa is going to be a mix of Western and Russian avionics. I never claimed Indian electronics are going to be used in it. Not for now.

By Western you mean Israeli?

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

There was also talk regarding increasing the fuel capacity and adding more weapons bays by rearranging the landing gear. Do you have any news regarding these changes.


By Western you mean Israeli?

Kinda. Radar is russian though. But the lightening targetting pod, navigational system, jammer , HUD are French and Israeli components.

 

[C130]

Pakistan is assessing the Thales-made Damocles targeting pod to be mounted on its JF-17 aircraft for giving the fighter precision-targeting capability.

Pakistan Air Force deputy chief Muhammad Ashfaque Arain, currently in Paris to discuss the possibility of acquiring the Domacles pod was quoted by Reuters today as saying, “the Damocles is a battle- proven system and the other options are not. If we do not get the Damocles pod for example, then we will need to look for alternate options that may not be proven.”

The JF-17 is a China- Pakistan joint venture manufactured in Pakistan. Arain said that the JF-17 with the Pakistan Air Force had been performing well but its usefulness in current operations was limited because it lacks precision-targeting, a need which would be fulfilled if Thales sold it the Damocles pod.

Arain revealed that 16 JF-17s will be produced this year in Pakistan and a further 20 in 2017. The aircraft are equipped to carry air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles and bombs.

The Damocles is a 3rd generation targeting pod, modular, eye-safe laser and a high performance pod. It is currently operated by Malaysia’s Su-30MKM jets, UAE Mirage 2000-9 jet, Saudi’s Tornado and Typhoon aircraft, as well as France’s Rafale and Mirage 2000D jets.
Pakistan Seeks Thales Damocles Targeting Pod For JF-17 Aircraft

battle-proven is the key word that cuts deep into this article. Pakistan not willing to take the risk on a Chinese system?


I read somewhere that Damocles is inferior to current systems like LITENING and Sniper. that's why they are developing Talios, but Damocles should be more than sufficient for JF-17.

 

[Paksanity]

@Vauban @Taygibay

Your views? How do you see the prospects of Domacles on JF-17 especially in the backdrop of Rafale sale to India and previous negotiations gone sour for French avionics on JF-17.

 

[Taygibay]

Well, my friend, as said, there are no real reasons why not!
It remains to be seen if these are Talios or Damoclès.
Check here for the story : Thales Focuses On User Experience In Talios Pod | Paris Air Show 2015 content from Aviation Week

If we are talking used Damocles pods from French inventory,
that's a one time deal to nab if France adjusts the price accordingly.

Most of the new tech on Talios is geared for improved recon/intel gathering.
That is not the main task of a targeting pod. The reason why the AdlA needed
those functions expanded is because of the Rafale's own qualities and omnirole.

For use on a Pakistani Thunder, Damocles is fine. Its limits still exceed the plane's own
and will complement the Snipers in inventory just fine, allowing the PAF to compare 'em.

You'll make softer use of them than the French do - no arrested landings on a carrier -
and being last month's flavour is a reasoning for snobs. I myself am rebuilding an old Kona
NuNu because, while it may not be recent, it rides sweet!

Again, make sure the bargain is substantial and then heck, why not, Tay.

 

[Paksanity]

Well, my friend, as said, there are no real reasons why not!
It remains to be seen if these are Talios or Damoclès.
Check here for the story : Thales Focuses On User Experience In Talios Pod | Paris Air Show 2015 content from Aviation Week

If we are talking used Damocles pods from French inventory,
that's a one time deal to nab if France adjusts the price accordingly.

Most of the new tech on Talios is geared for improved recon/intel gathering.
That is not the main task of a targeting pod. The reason why the AdlA needed
those functions expanded is because of the Rafale's own qualities and omnirole.

For use on a Pakistani Thunder, Damocles is fine. Its limits still exceed the plane's own
and will complement the Snipers in inventory just fine, allowing the PAF to compare 'em.

You'll make softer use of them than the French do - no arrested landings on a carrier -
and being last month's flavour is a reasoning for snobs. I myself am rebuilding an old Kona
NuNu because while it may not be recent, it rides sweet!

Again, make sure the bargain is substantial and then heck, why not, Tay.

I wasn't aware used Damocles are up for grab. That could be really sweet deal if we can get French to agree on that. Perhaps 3 dozens or so. Talios would be an overkill as you said. It also does not sit well with philosophy behind JF-17 i.e. keep it on a budget. For Anti-terrorism operations like in FATA, Syria, Iraq, Somalia, Nigeria etc JF-17 coupled with Damocles will be more than enough. I wonder if AASM will also come along? Or perhaps we can marry one of ours to Damocles.

 

[Taygibay]

There is no direct link between Damocles and AASM.
Not the same maker, both available for separate export, etc.
We just know they work fine together from combat proven use.

Now an assembly line from basic bombs bodies to AASM might
be a good idea. The foundries exist in Pakistan to make shells,
either welded and machined or cast. Pakistan: Metal Casting, Tecno Pack Industries (Pvt) Ltd., casts for cars, motorcycles, tractors

Developing it will take longer so it should be in progress at the same time
but not to be relied on yet.

All the best to you and yours, Tay

 

[Paksanity]

There is no direct link between Damocles and AASM.
Not the same maker, both available for separate export, etc.
We just know they work fine together from combat proven use.

Now an assembly line from basic bombs bodies to AASM might
be a good idea. The foundries exist in Pakistan to make shells,
either welded and machined or cast. Pakistan: Metal Casting, Tecno Pack Industries (Pvt) Ltd., casts for cars, motorcycles, tractors

Developing it will take longer so it should be in progress at the same time
but not to be relied on yet.

All the best to you and yours, Tay

Pakistan already produces own Mk-8x series bombs.
...::akistan Ordnance Factories:::...

Now to add kit to this. Pakistan was working on something, if this picture is to be believed (sorry about quality).

I'm not sure what's the progress on that. We do have GBU-xx series from US which should work just fine with French pod. Then there are Chinese ones and also possibility of license production of AASM kits if we could work it out. Oh well, let's see. This should be an exciting year.

 

[SQ8]

That's why Kamra keeps updating the fighter much faster than conventional wisdom and commercial sense would justify. For use with Pakistani systems is why the French System is even being considered, even then, it probably won't make it to all the birds, at least not initially and might instead be incorporated into the Blk-III platform which should enter production somewhere around the 120th unit, I believe. @Oscar can you please confirm?

The Blk-III will come sooner than that. If the spec is ready and the production line is ready to convert; nothing stops an improved spec taking production.

 

[Blue Marlin]

The Blk-III will come sooner than that. If the spec is ready and the production line is ready to convert; nothing stops an improved spec taking production.

most likely it would be 50 per block wouldn't it? also it being a 3rd gen pod it would be cheap as compared to lets say the thales talios pod. also turkey produces their own pods to why didnt paf induct them. combat proven or not its not an excuse. heck even the chinese have pods too. why the strange fetish for french kit? it does not make sense.

 

[HAIDER]

The french have sold to anyone who can pay the money. The real question that needs answering is whether there is comparable product which has comparable parameters. ASEL POD seems like a decent bet. I wonder how much it will cost and what the integration cost would be. The french would be very expensive. If @bilal khan is to be believed

A

If PAF approach French then obviously they have fund and already did the homework. Because even when you buy any personal big ticket item, we always cover initial and final cost of the product and here we talking about PAF. Who has long history of procuring big ticket items.

 

[Beast]

I thought Pakistanis considered everything the Chinese provided to be the best going by the statements in pdf?
But I think Pakistanis should try Chinese version first before trying others. Its cheap and may prove to be good.

The PAF eventually will get the Chinese pod operation. They are enquiries the French pod just like how they troll the French and Indian regards to Thales RC400 avionics.

End up, all JF-17 equipped only with KJL-2 radar and no others. This event makes no difference. JF-17 will equipped with Chinese WMD-7 pod.

 

[HAIDER]

Well, my friend, as said, there are no real reasons why not!
It remains to be seen if these are Talios or Damoclès.
Check here for the story : Thales Focuses On User Experience In Talios Pod | Paris Air Show 2015 content from Aviation Week

If we are talking used Damocles pods from French inventory,
that's a one time deal to nab if France adjusts the price accordingly.

Most of the new tech on Talios is geared for improved recon/intel gathering.
That is not the main task of a targeting pod. The reason why the AdlA needed
those functions expanded is because of the Rafale's own qualities and omnirole.

For use on a Pakistani Thunder, Damocles is fine. Its limits still exceed the plane's own
and will complement the Snipers in inventory just fine, allowing the PAF to compare 'em.

You'll make softer use of them than the French do - no arrested landings on a carrier -
and being last month's flavour is a reasoning for snobs. I myself am rebuilding an old Kona
NuNu because, while it may not be recent, it rides sweet!

Again, make sure the bargain is substantial and then heck, why not, Tay.

How many degrees of your Kona NuNu will make you glide...

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well thunder BLOCK 1-2 -3 likely will be just better with Chinese stuff

 

[MastanKhan]

I wasn't aware used Damocles are up for grab. That could be really sweet deal if we can get French to agree on that. Perhaps 3 dozens or so. Talios would be an overkill as you said. It also does not sit well with philosophy behind JF-17 i.e. keep it on a budget. For Anti-terrorism operations like in FATA, Syria, Iraq, Somalia, Nigeria etc JF-17 coupled with Damocles will be more than enough. I wonder if AASM will also come along? Or perhaps we can marry one of ours to Damocles.

Hi,

The budget of JF17 is directly proportional to the power it would project with the right equipment.

The resulting force multiplier of advanced technology will make it a much better and potent weapons systems.

This was basically the principal projection of the air force---that once they have the aircraft ready---the leading available technology would take the aircraft to a higher pleateau.

So---the term used initially as ' a budget aircraft '----was just to be on a low key---a stealth flight.

So---don't be surprised---if there is a 40--50 million dollar JF17 in the future----it will be well worth the money.