Pakistan Seeks Thales Damocles Targeting Pod For JF-17 Aircraft

[Icarus]

And they are hampered by the non availability of it

That but more importantly, there is the cost factor, Western systems maybe top notch but carry a price tag to boot, which might not be an issue if a platform like the Typhoon or the Rafael is in question but becomes a major concern when the system is intended for a platform like a JF-17 which has its entire appeal centered around the "bang for buck" that it offers. The JF-17 has to be substantially cheaper than competing platforms for it to be viable. Even if we get it to perform to the standards of the Blk-52 but in the process, hike the price up to the same level, then obviously the Blk-52 will become a more viable, and more attractive platform.

 

[salarsikander]

they are hampered by the non availability of it

Hi,

No exactly hampered by it. If something proven is available in market one should always go for it. If not then Obviously our next best choice is China. The thing with PAf getting western equipment is that it will give Chinese a good idea on how to further improve their own products

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

That but more importantly, there is the cost factor, Western systems maybe top notch but carry a price tag to boot, which might not be an issue if a platform like the Typhoon or the Rafael is in question but becomes a major concern when the system is intended for a platform like a JF-17 which has its entire appeal centered around the "bang for buck" that it offers. The JF-17 has to be substantially cheaper than competing platforms for it to be viable. Even if we get it to perform to the standards of the Blk-52 but in the process, hike the price up to the same level, then obviously the Blk-52 will become a more viable, and more attractive platform.

That is true if you want to market J17 primarily for export alone. But if you want to use it for PAF, then you will do anything to make it better, especially an aircraft which Pakistan call its own.
You might even call it prestige factor, and it is.

 

[Icarus]

That is true if you want to market J17 primarily for export alone. But if you want to use it for PAF, then you will do anything to make it better, especially an aircraft which Pakistan call its own.
You might even call it prestige factor, and it is.

That's why Kamra keeps updating the fighter much faster than conventional wisdom and commercial sense would justify. For use with Pakistani systems is why the French System is even being considered, even then, it probably won't make it to all the birds, at least not initially and might instead be incorporated into the Blk-III platform which should enter production somewhere around the 120th unit, I believe. @Oscar can you please confirm?

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Hi,

No exactly hampered by it. If something proven is available in market one should always go for it. If not then Obviously our next best choice is China. The thing with PAf getting western equipment is that it will give Chinese a good idea on how to further improve their own products

I used the word "hampered" cos, if I develop an equipment, I would want it to test against the best. China under ban for decades from Western countries, would have got no chance to test and evaluate its equipment against the best. After the fall of SU, even Russian companies remained dormant for nearly 15 years and now the distance between them and Western technologies have increased by leaps and bounds.

If the French allows its technologies to be evaluated by the Chinese, China may come up with a better product. And there is a reason, why PAF wants F16 in place of J10. Even if given an opportunity of 20 free J10 in place of 10 costly F16, PAF will simply go for F16. The reliability and its technology simply better.

We can hate Western world however we may, but currently they have the best technology for which we can just watch in envy

That's why Kamra keeps updating the fighter much faster than conventional wisdom and commercial sense would justify. For use with Pakistani systems is why the French System is even being considered, even then, it probably won't make it to all the birds, at least not initially and might instead be incorporated into the Blk-III platform which should enter production somewhere around the 120th unit, I believe. @Oscar can you please confirm?

BLK 3 is rumoured to be new design I guess? TBH J17 design is in need of modifications and the current design has its own limitations. It needs a design overhaul.
But why wait for Blk 3 version for using this pod? It can be used in normal version albeit with software changes and integration.

 

[Paksanity]

An export customer might have asked for top notch targetting pod and willing to foot the bill. Given Insurgency is order of the day, I will not be surprised if nations are more interested in guiding bombs to the target than BVRs to the hostile aircraft. Iraq and Nigeria comes to mind. They might have such requirements.

[Edit]. PAF would be beneficiary as well. Greater numbers of pod ordered will bring per unit cost down as well as integration costs distributed over several aircraft and nations.

 

[Icarus]

BLK 3 is rumoured to be new design I guess? TBH J17 design is in need of modifications and the current design has its own limitations. It needs a design overhaul.
But why wait for Blk 3 version for using this pod? It can be used in normal version albeit with software changes and integration

They're rumours, so my guess is as good as yours. The platform with its existing design performs well up to the mark that it is set to achieve. Its meant to cover for the F-7 and Mirage which it does well enough so a design overhaul would be unnecessary at this stage unless a massive reconsideration on the intended role for the platform was on the cards which does not appear to be the case. For all intent and purposes, the Blk-52 is likely to remain the punch behind the PAF's doctrine for the coming decade or possible slightly more.
As for the adding the pod onto the existing air frames, they're all meant to be brought up to specification "eventually", which is why I believe that they might receive the Blk-III treatment when they are due for a scheduled service life overhaul at Kamra.

 

[salarsikander]

even Russian companies remained dormant for nearly 15 years

Hi,

Wouldnt say the same for s-400 or su-30 for that matter. Secondly, in order to test the equipment especially in the context of defense good. You will never get the foreign equipment, but yes you ca get the comparable equipment, the one using comparable electronics and what not. Send your equipment in real war scenarios, improve it further dont just stop after making them. Thats what US did, that is what China is doing

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

They're rumours, so my guess is as good as yours. The platform with its existing design performs well up to the mark that it is set to achieve. Its meant to cover for the F-7 and Mirage which it does well enough so a design overhaul would be unnecessary at this stage unless a massive reconsideration on the intended role for the platform was on the cards which does not appear to be the case. For all intent and purposes, the Blk-52 is likely to remain the punch behind the PAF's doctrine for the coming decade or possible slightly more.
As for the adding the pod onto the existing air frames, they're all meant to be brought up to specification "eventually", which is why I believe that they might receive the Blk-III treatment when they are due for a scheduled service life overhaul at Kamra.

Oops. I suggested an design overhaul for Bllk 3

Hi,

Wouldnt say the same for s-400 or su-30 for that matter. Secondly, in order to test the equipment especially in the context of defense good. You will never get the foreign equipment, but yes you ca get the comparable equipment, the one using comparable electronics and what not. Send your equipment in real war scenarios, improve it further dont just stop after making them. Thats what US did, that is what China is doing

Do you know that it was India who gifted the developed Su30 platform to Russia? It was Russia's platform with Engines, of course, but its Electronics suite were so dilapidated that we sought our own, integrated, developed it into a potent MKI, which the Russians later adopted into their version. Strictly speaking they inducted Su30 only after we inducted and developed that platform.

S400 is a new platform, again developed from S300 desined during the Soviet heydays. If I am correct S300 was inducted around 1980. Russians technologies in missiles is top notch, and its aircraft designers have hardcore fans even among its adversaries. But its lagging behind it ECW suits, associated tech's. Its like comparing DRDO's achievements in missiles to its failures in other spheres.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

I think there is an Asel pod. From its specs on youtube it looked good but how it is in relation to Democles and whether there is a price difference between the two and integration time and the possibility of it. There are more questions than answers. It is very interesting as to why PAF went to the french in the first place given the RF400 debacle. Any ways it could irk our Chinese friends into com8ng up with something comparable.
A

1) There was a post regarding the Democles before the attack which stated that this is a catch 22 for the Indians, if the Indians do not go for this by saying that this is not up to the mark and procure some other for the Rafales (IF Ordered).

2) This is the only pod that is proven.

3) It gives PAF the commonality with the Middle Eastern friends.

4) Perhaps this is only being considered for export orders of JF-17 so we could see some thing from the Chinese or Turkish for PAF aircraft.

 

[araz]

I used the word "hampered" cos, if I develop an equipment, I would want it to test against the best. China under ban for decades from Western countries, would have got no chance to test and evaluate its equipment against the best. After the fall of SU, even Russian companies remained dormant for nearly 15 years and now the distance between them and Western technologies have increased by leaps and bounds.

If the French allows its technologies to be evaluated by the Chinese, China may come up with a better product. And there is a reason, why PAF wants F16 in place of J10. Even if given an opportunity of 20 free J10 in place of 10 costly F16, PAF will simply go for F16. The reliability and its technology simply better.

We can hate Western world however we may, but currently they have the best technology for which we can just watch in envy



BLK 3 is rumoured to be new design I guess? TBH J17 design is in need of modifications and the current design has its own limitations. It needs a design overhaul.
But why wait for Blk 3 version for using this pod? It can be used in normal version albeit with software changes and integration.

I personally think there wont be many modifications in block 3 externally. The nose perhaps to incorporate an AESA, Possibly IRST,Inlet mounted POD designated hardpoint and perhaps a couple more hardpoints( not too sure on that one). The changes will mostly be under the skin.
I can't disagree with your assessment of J10 vs F16s but there are many more factors to it than the simplistic approach you have adopted.
Things to consider:-
A). In the presence of infrastructure to support 110 fighters does one get another fighter with no infrastructure.
B)The cost of training and setting up infrastructure.
C) The maturity of the product and its utility within the planning of PAF.
D) How much time it takes you to develop the tactics with the plane and train up the manpower to look after and fly the bird
E) What advantages it gives you over your adversary.
F) Standing at the cusp of generation change which generation do you bet on .
G) Threat assesment and your financial flexibility.
More than anything it is the last factor which gives us headache. Even chinese products with increasing complexity are becoming too expensive for us. In a situation of fiscal inadaptness one cannot be lapsidaisical in decision making. For those who malign the 16s for whatever reasons, I always say that if a mistake was made it was in the 80s not now. So unless you can forsee the future there is no way you can malign the procurements now.
A

 

[salarsikander]

Do you know that it was India who gifted the developed Su30 platform to Russia? It was Russia's platform with Engines, of course, but its Electronics suite were so dilapidated that we sought our own, integrated, developed it into a potent MKI, which the Russians later adopted into their version. Strictly speaking they inducted Su30 only after we inducted and developed that platform.

S400 is a new platform, again developed from S300 desined during the Soviet heydays. If I am correct S300 was inducted around 1980. Russians technologies in missiles is top notch, and its aircraft designers have hardcore fans even among its adversaries. But its lagging behind it ECW suits, associated tech's. Its like comparing DRDO's achievements in missiles to its failures in other spheres.

Hi,
Is that the reason why you guys are stil seeking to fund the PAK Fa with them ! and not on your own, After all as you claimed that your electronics industry is far ahead advanced a compared to their which is the reason why su-0 became so potent. Lets not make big tall claims here.

China started way later than both of us and look where they are standing, they cant go head on with US, but yes they are threat to US's dominance. You cant simply disregard the strides Chinese defense companies have made.

How many of your Defense products are sold around the globe and how many of their? this alone should give you some good indication

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

They're rumours, so my guess is as good as yours. The platform with its existing design performs well up to the mark that it is set to achieve. Its meant to cover for the F-7 and Mirage which it does well enough so a design overhaul would be unnecessary at this stage unless a massive reconsideration on the intended role for the platform was on the cards which does not appear to be the case. For all intent and purposes, the Blk-52 is likely to remain the punch behind the PAF's doctrine for the coming decade or possible slightly more.
As for the adding the pod onto the existing air frames, they're all meant to be brought up to specification "eventually", which is why I believe that they might receive the Blk-III treatment when they are due for a scheduled service life overhaul at Kamra.

Most probably these are for a foreign customer like the JF-17B which has a French engine.
The JF-17 block changes are made ever 50th aircraft hence upon the overhauls the existing frames would also get the upgrades. Remember reading that the overhaul time for the JF-17 is lower than that of the F-16's hence it is more feasible to upgrade them earlier.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Hi,
Is that the reason why you guys are stil seeking to fund the PAK Fa with them ! and not on your own, After all as you claimed that your electronics industry is far ahead advanced a compared to their which is the reason why su-0 became so potent. Lets not make big tall claims here.

China started way later than both of us and look where they are standing, they cant go head on with US, but yes they are threat to US's dominance. You cant simply disregard the strides Chinese defense companies have made.

How many of your Defense products are sold around the globe and how many of their? this alone should give you some good indication

No. The electronics used in Su3o are western avionics. We integrated them. Russia initially told theirs were good enough. We did it without their help.
Even PakFa is going to be a mix of Western and Russian avionics. I never claimed Indian electronics are going to be used in it. Not for now.

As for China, yes they have developed, but we did not sell the Mig 21 Russians sold as F7 to other world nations, nor their modified Ak47, nor their weapons and platforms.

 

[araz]

1) There was a post regarding the Democles before the attack which stated that this is a catch 22 for the Indians, if the Indians do not go for this by saying that this is not up to the mark and procure some other for the Rafales (IF Ordered).

2) This is the only pod that is proven.

3) It gives PAF the commonality with the Middle Eastern friends.

4) Perhaps this is only being considered for export orders of JF-17 so we could see some thing from the Chinese or Turkish for PAF aircraft.

Thank you. Idont think a pod is such a commodity that you would want to have a different one just because your adversary has one. EW suite I would understand but a Pod?
Give it 6-12 months and with the activity the Turks are involved in even the ASEL POD will be battle tested.
It is not that I disagree but I remain a bit sceptical as to why PAF is not looking and comparing other sources for the technology.
A