Pakistan scores a diplomatic brownie point: Kayani gets Russia to 'ignore'

[KRAIT]

Iraq was their cow, so was Libya, so is Syria

6 months back I heard India will never open retail sector to foreigners, few days back I heard otherwise. lets see who gets slaughtered this time around. they got you boys and this time from your weak balls...lol

next step, US says dance, India asks with or without clothing

You sure what you are comparing. Kiddo, Libya, Sryia, Iraq are not India.

Retail sector- It was always on table but few opposed it. Remember India has been a democracy since its freedom. You can't just allow anything any time. There is a due process even if it progress with snail's speed.

Are you sure about our weakness, as I remember US apologizing to our film actor and ignoring you Government. Not to forget US asking us to stop oil from Iran, ended up in making us an exception. Didn't you read Romney's comments about India shouldn't even buy am ounce of an oil.

You guys have a long way to go to become independent in terms of foreign policy. Stop giving childish comparison.

@topic
What I am seeing now is posters projecting Russia as reason of peace, stability and freedom considering bitter relations with US. Just one meeting and people going Gaga over Russia. Few decades you were fighting against them. Do you really think Russians changed and has no hard feelings against you no matter what diplomatic measure they take ?

Same is in case of US. It was hurting you decades ago by making you dependent on them., You thought US will always be there and its influence in WB, IMF etc will come handy. Now they are attacking you and blocking your requests for funds in these organizations.

Instead of taking this as a victory, better start building neutral stance regarding US and Russia with tilt towards China.Keeping this neutrality will help you to make both the countries to act carefully with you. Use your friendship with China and remain out of US and Russia tussle.

Getting over emotional is not gonna help. Stop bringing India loosing Russia argument. Any sane and senior person on this forum knows what's the ground reality.

 

[surya kiran]

Iraq was their cow, so was Libya, so is Syria

6 months back I heard India will never open retail sector to foreigners, few days back I heard otherwise. lets see who gets slaughtered this time around. they got you boys and this time from your weak balls...lol

next step, US says dance, India asks with or without clothing

They are far away from it. The central government cannot impose on a state government. And state governments will extract their own pound of flesh. For e.g. They may allow entry into the state, but, put a condition that 50% of all inventories has to be procured from the state. This will ensure increased earning potential to the MSME crowd. So the decision is decent, but, at the Central level they should have kept the procurement quota at 75% for the first 5 years of operations.

Investment in retail is not bad. if you actually study which sectors have been opened up, Its aviation and retail. There are actually 2 reasons for this.

1. Indian banks have loaned heavily to these 2 sectors. Put these 2 sectors along with realty and you are looking at some of the biggest NPAs on the books of the banks. Hiving off these will reduce loads and risk factors on Indian financial institutions.

2. Improvement in infrastrcuture in retail. The government is realising it needs to get out of non-essential reserve maintenance of commodities. But all this requires transport and warehousing facilities. This requires investments.

If you combing the above 2 points with the points made earlier on procurement, the GoI has actually thought through and introduced it in a very sane manner.

@topic :

You really need to learn to deal with the Russians. If you thought the Americans were tough (atleast they gave free stuff), welcome to the Russians! No freebies! And the iron hold of the russian bear.

 

[Secur]

I am not talking about your WoT expenses.

How are you going to build dams? Power projects? Railway infrastructure? All this requires loans from international organisations. Aid need not be just freebies.

Again, we have more interest than in just Pakistani focused partner requirement in Afghanistan. We are interested in protecting our investmant and capital there.That is what we mean by saying, helps to have a known partner there too, who we trust more than the Americans. Our foreign policy is not anti-Pakistan focused. It is India focused.

Having said that, the last thing we want is another rising of the Taliban brigade there which will put all the gains of the past few years to nought. And knowing Pak intelligence, this is exactly what they will try. Also, the question of Pakistan allowing and not allowing will be revealed when things actually happen. That is Afghanistan and Afghans have a mind of their own. The faster the Pak Establishment gets out of its 'strategic depth' insight, the better it will be for the region. The real play starts only after NATO withdraws and then who knows what cards the international community plays after Pakistan's role is over?

So the easier solution is better relations on your eastern front, which can be controlled and increase trade, while you go on fighting the western front. And increase the trade corridor from Iran, Afghanistan and Central Asia through Pakistan into India.

Then what are you talking about ? Where is the " prove " that " Aid " runs the economy of Pakistan as you claimed earlier ? With stability and law and order in the country , the world will witness an economic boom in our country ... We have too much of untapped resources and trade opportunities that we haven't taken advantage of / exploited yet ... All that is needed is peace , not aid ... Pakistan will not need another International loan or anything ... Not even that we need it now since the given money is not spent on development but rather deposited in Swiss banks ... So , do we see Pakistan collapse ? ... BTW since when a loan is considered an " aid " or freebie ?

Like anyone else of course ... However you dreamt of some sort of influence over Pakistan , not that of protecting your capital and investments ... A known partner can only help so much , I thought Indians would have learned it by now after having US , that because they have no geographic link ( share no border ) to that country so that they are always going to be dependent on Pakistan or other Afghanistan's neighbors to maintain their presence , make any investment in that country and make inroads into Central Asia ... Actually , your foreign policy is totally anti-Pakistan , you view the world through that prism ...

Not really ... Nobody wants another rising of Taliban least of all - Pakistan who are ruining the peace in the neighborhood and in our country ... Yes , the answers will be known post 2014 but if history is any indication - we still have the upper hand ... Afghanistan even lacks coherence as a nation , what mind of their own are you referring to ? With the so called Govt merely controlling Kabul , I fail to see your logic ... " Strategic Depth " is a pure debunked never proven myth so better leave it at that ... The real play has started actually - NATO is in a hurry to abandon Afghanistan and Russia is leaning closer to Pakistan because it understands the sort of influence and power Islamabad has in that country ... The International community can at best impose sanctions and believe it or not - every time it was done before , we prospered more than we did before it

 

[INDIAISM]

They both wont sow up their cards too early like indians 10 yrs under UPA.

As for Modi..He will never be PM.only if wishes were horses...................

India can be partner with USA but never be an ally like Pakistan is/was to usa....Past 10 yrs of usa moves has given proof of it.bit hint USA foreign policy still guided by the ideas of Brezenski and HK.

Rest are all wishes ..........

I will come back to you on that highlighted point after 2013/14 election....

and as faar as this news concern i think Pakistan has already played its card now its India's turn....Let see what happen in upcoming Russian President's visit....and believe i don't trust congress when it comes to corruption but i also have to give credit to them when it comes to foreign diplomacy...we have always been couple of step ahead of Pakistan in this department since 1965...


Btw what an irony till 1991 you needed Americans to save you from Soviet Russia and now in 2012 you need Russia to save you from Americans.....

 

[EzioAltaïr]

I dont know who is a troll, the one who puts a news about Russia Pakistan relationship improving or the 100s who starts crying, no yeh nehe ho sakta

You don't know who is a troll? Look in a mirror.

 

[Secur]

@topic :

You really need to learn to deal with the Russians. If you thought the Americans were tough (atleast they gave free stuff), welcome to the Russians! No freebies! And the iron hold of the russian bear.

I think my country has dealt with Russians in the past ... As stated before ... Pakistan needs only trade and investment and no freebies ... So repeating the same things again and again is no use !

and as faar as this news concern i think Pakistan has already played its card now its India's turn....Let see what happen in upcoming Russian President's visit...

Think again !

 

[Paan Singh]

Not really ... Nobody wants another rising of Taliban least of all - Pakistan who are ruining the peace in the neighborhood and in our country ... Yes , the answers will be known post 2014 but if history is any indication - we still have the upper hand ... Afghanistan even lacks coherence as a nation , what mind of their own are you referring to ? With the so called Govt merely controlling Kabul , I fail to see your logic ... " Strategic Depth " is a pure debunked never proven myth so better leave it at that ... The real play has started actually - NATO is in a hurry to abandon Afghanistan and Russia is leaning closer to Pakistan because it understands the sort of influence and power Islamabad has in that country ... The International community can at best impose sanctions and believe it or not - every time it was done before , we prospered more than we did before it

1)The role of the nato will be known after 2014.Who says that they will leave? There are few countries who wants to reduce troops and few wants to abandon and U.S is going to stay there till 2024.

2)2-3 visits dont determine the nature of the russia or other country.If it was then india would have been much closer to paksitan or vice versa but where we are standing?

3)You have not seen the worst sanctions dear.Reason? ...U.S rivalry with soviets and india.But now that case is absent and U.S wanted to use u again so they never gone for worst sanctions and even they knew about ur nuclear program but did they stop it? no..

so u r suffering from habit of counting eggs b4 hatching. ...

 

[Secur]

What I am seeing now is posters projecting Russia as reason of peace, stability and freedom considering bitter relations with US. Just one meeting and people going Gaga over Russia. Few decades you were fighting against them. Do you really think Russians changed and has no hard feelings against you no matter what diplomatic measure they take ?

Well except from that , what reason do the Russians have in leaning closer to Pakistan ? Our interests converge - since this is the exact same thing we want ... Its not just one meeting and I think you haven't been keeping track of the developments since 2010 ... Haven't you stated before in many threads that geopolitics can change overnight ? So what is so hard to accept about Russia and Pakistan being friends in the future ?

 

[surya kiran]

Then what are you talking about ? Where is the " prove " that " Aid " runs the economy of Pakistan as you claimed earlier ? With stability and law and order in the country , the world will witness an economic boom in our country ... We have too much of untapped resources and trade opportunities that we haven't taken advantage of / exploited yet ... All that is needed is peace , not aid ... Pakistan will not need another International loan or anything ... Not even that we need it now since the given money is not spent on development but rather deposited in Swiss banks ... So , do we see Pakistan collapse ? ... BTW since when a loan is considered an " aid " or freebie ?

Like anyone else of course ... However you dreamt of some sort of influence over Pakistan , not that of protecting your capital and investments ... A known partner can only help so much , I thought Indians would have learned it by now after having US , that because they have no geographic link ( share no border ) to that country so that they are always going to be dependent on Pakistan or other Afghanistan's neighbors to maintain their presence , make any investment in that country and make inroads into Central Asia ... Actually , your foreign policy is totally anti-Pakistan , you view the world through that prism ...

Not really ... Nobody wants another rising of Taliban least of all - Pakistan who are ruining the peace in the neighborhood and in our country ... Yes , the answers will be known post 2014 but if history is any indication - we still have the upper hand ... Afghanistan even lacks coherence as a nation , what mind of their own are you referring to ? With the so called Govt merely controlling Kabul , I fail to see your logic ... " Strategic Depth " is a pure debunked never proven myth so better leave it at that ... The real play has started actually - NATO is in a hurry to abandon Afghanistan and Russia is leaning closer to Pakistan because it understands the sort of influence and power Islamabad has in that country ... The International community can at best impose sanctions and believe it or not - every time it was done before , we prospered more than we did before it

Again, you are reading what you want, not, what I am writing. I did not say Pakistan runs on aid. I said Pakistan needs aid. For what? Building dams, building power projects and infrastructure. You have resources. Good. Who is going to develop it. You are going to need money. Is that so difficult to understand? Aid can be either loan based or fee. Hope you understand this.

Foreign policy - For India post 2001...Pakistan is nuisance value internationally. Which is why we no longer get ourselves hyphenated with Pakistan. Which is why the US was forced to have an AfPak envoy and not club India in the same bracket. Hope you know this. Our foreign policy is stated to promote our national interests globally. Unlike the Pak policy which is single focused which is India and Kashmir.

As far as Afghanistan is concerned, our objective is clearly defined and well laid out. You of all should know, not to understimate what Kabul wants and can do to that region. As of date, Islamabad has less influence than most people, except on the Haqqani network. Which is what I say again. Nuisance value.

 

[Secur]

1)The role of the nato will be known after 2014.Who says that they will leave? There are few countries who wants to reduce troops and few wants to abandon and U.S is going to stay there till 2024.

2)2-3 visits dont determine the nature of the russia or other country.If it was then india would have been much closer to paksitan or vice versa but where we are standing?

3)You have not seen the worst sanctions dear.Reason? ...U.S rivalry with soviets and india.But now that case is absent and U.S wanted to use u again so they never gone for worst sanctions and even they knew about ur nuclear program but did they stop it? no..

so u r suffering from habit of counting eggs b4 hatching. ...

Actually , NATO has a declared policy about its role post 2014 in Afghanistan ... So I am not guessing or making assumptions ... How many countries have left that country by now ? Wasn't there a recent reduction in troops by US to meet the deadline of withdrawal faster and calls by British to abandon Afghanistan ? ... Get me a source for US gonna stay there till 2024 ... Even if it does , it will make no difference honestly because they have fought in Afghanistan for a whole decade by now without any fruitful results or victory to the extent that still major parts of Afghanistan are controlled by Taliban and other militias ... A few thousand troops will hardly make any difference when almost a million weren't able to do anything ...

Yes they do not , but the signing and the pace of signing agreements specially the recent defense accord does ...

Nah , we have ... The best US can do is impose unilateral sanctions since any resolution of that sort isn't going to be passed in UNSC ... We know the reasons well ... So has the US-Russia rivalry come to an end or we were witnessing a minor hibernation by the bear ?

 

[Ticker]

You sure what you are comparing. Kiddo, Libya, Sryia, Iraq are not India.

Retail sector- It was always on table but few opposed it. Remember India has been a democracy since its freedom. You can't just allow anything any time. There is a due process even if it progress with snail's speed.

Are you sure about our weakness, as I remember US apologizing to our film actor and ignoring you Government. Not to forger US asking us to stop oil from Iran, ended up in making us an exception. Didn't you read Romney's comments about India shouldn't even buy am ounce of an oil.

You guys have a long way to go to become independent in terms of foreign policy. Stop giving childish comparison.

@topic
What I am seeing now is posters projecting Russia as reason of peace, stability and freedom considering bitter relations with US. Just one meeting and people going Gaga over Russia. Few decades you were fighting against them. Do you really think Russians changed and has no hard feelings against you no matter what diplomatic measure they take ?

Same is in case of US. It was hurting you decades ago by making you dependent on them., You thought US will always be there and its influence in WB, IMF etc will come handy. Now they are attacking you and blocking your requests for funds in these organizations.

Instead of taking this as a victory, better start building neutral stance regarding US and Russia with tilt towards China.Keeping this neutrality will help you to make both the countries to act carefully with you. Use your friendship with China and remain out of US and Russia tussle.

Getting over emotional is not gonna help.

Actually, we all have seen Indian democracy forced the country together through oppressive use of its security forces which has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Indian citizens though these are known as minorities, scheduled castes and untouchables etc.

I also remember the Indian defence minister asked to take off his clothes while entering USA - twice at that. And even the ex Indian President, for that matter. They must have apologized every time, I am sure.

I think it is you who should stop giving childish comparisons between an actor and an Indian defence minister - there may not be any difference though.

@topic

I am not seeing any poster except for yourself, projecting Russia as a reason of peace. Though the US was almost an Indian enemy some time back, when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan and even before that during the non-alignment charade. And now, even Indian culture is being Americanized - ironic though, such a so-called old culture being subjected to change by a comparatively newer culture.

Nobody here is saying that Pakistan is going gaga over Russian support, though lady gaga do sing well, and you are not her at all. Nobody here needs your advice on how Pakistan should run its policies, as we see how India is losing her strengths by attempting to piggyback the US to glory. We know US much better than you guys at-least.

 

[surya kiran]

I think my country has dealt with Russians in the past ... As stated before ... Pakistan needs only trade and investment and no freebies ... So repeating the same things again and again is no use !
:

Deals which fell through.

1. Steel mills
2. And the pipeline.

So tell me what have you dealt with the Russians recently in trade and investment? Cause the russians refused the above 2 if I am not mistaken.

 

[KRAIT]

Well except from that , what reason do the Russians have in leaning closer to Pakistan ? Our interests converge - since this is the exact same thing we want ... Its not just one meeting and I think you haven't been keeping track of the developments since 2010 ... Haven't you stated before in many threads that geopolitics can change overnight ? So what is so hard to accept about Russia and Pakistan being friends in the future ?

Actually I always said geo-politics change gradually. Ask anyone around. Even Oscar knows, I think he remembers, when I talked about that its just few steps and one shouldn't draw conclusions or predict anything as nothing is clear. For sudden geo-political change or strategic change, you need events like 9/11 or OBL raid. These events influences the people very rapidly.

I am not saying its hard to accept Russia and Pakistan as friends as I know you guys may be strategic partner at best with everyone looking out for its own interest. For friendship, you need decades long relations, cultural ties, trust and this doesn't happen overnight.

Even China didn't came to help Pakistan in 1971 by same Russia (USSR) and it pushed US away too. One of the major reason of India's victory in 71 was USSR involvement in keeping US and China away from helping you. And you were the same nation that helped in USSR defeat in Afghanistan which led to USSR disintegration. I think the relations will take time to become "friendly".

Another thing is Russia wants Pakistan to remain against Islamic fundamentalists. This reason is not discussed by many people, I don't know why.

BTW there are no friends and foes in International politics, just every one looking out for their own interest. Right now, to attract one country, you sometimes show interest to the enemy country, that makes the target country to take them seriously.

Its like Russia (Girl A) flirting with Pakistan (Boy B) to get more attention of her boyfriend (Boy C). Girl A sends signal to Boy B that if you give attention to US (Girl D) and start talking to her, she will leave him for Boy C.................

Basic courtship and love funda.....

 

[surya kiran]

Actually, we all have seen Indian democracy forced the country together through oppressive use of its security forces which has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Indian citizens though these are known as minorities, scheduled castes and untouchables etc.

I also remember the Indian defence minister asked to take off his clothes while entering USA - twice at that. And even the ex Indian President, for that matter. They must have apologized every time, I am sure.
.

Please provide links, if you can;t please edit your post.

 

[Ticker]

Deals which fell through.

1. Steel mills
2. And the pipeline.

So tell me what have you dealt with the Russians recently in trade and investment? Cause the russians refused the above 2 if I am not mistaken.

For you people everything begins and ends with money - inter state relations are bigger than these matters alone. However you would not be able to understand such matters.