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Pakistan’s ISI from the inside

@Agno..

Can we have a different threat/sub forum with restricted access to those people who want to talk about developing strategies for the betterment of current situation instead of living in past or ranting?

It would be beneficial to discuss without being concerned about taking the thread off-topic or having to answer people who just come for trolling..

Just a suggestion, seconding VChang..

Thanks
 
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Because right now, the government, the media and the civil society are like the three monkeys who hear no evil, see no evil and speak no evil, despite everything that is in front of them.
Without forcing them to change (and the 'how to do that' goes back to the questions posed by you in your last post, which, IMO, is a constructive topic the senior Pakistani posters can, and should, spend time on) there can be no way to bring about 'long term change', democratically at least.
Because, for all my scathing attacks, the Pakistan military is the best collection of patriots I have seen ever, except the very top.

Because the military themselves have a duty to put right what they have had a great role in putting wrong in the first place.
But here you are arguing for the 'military to intervene in the running of the State'.

Here is my quick and simple thought on how the 'Army' could try and 'fix' Pakistan's structural weaknesses - Army coup, change system of government to Presidential (and Federal, keeping in place the NFC and other provincial accords currently enjoying a degree of support across the board), and make local governments constitutional, along with putting all intelligence and security agencies (military, para military, law enforcement) under 'bipartisan' committees (at Federal and Provincial levels), similar to the Supreme Court Justice nomination process.

But that requires a 'Coup', and there is no guarantee that the same old faces will no again be elected and overthrow the changes brought about by the military under the guise of 'dictator imposed anti-democracy changes'. I suppose that while the military is 'violating the constitution', it could also round up every Wadera, Sardar, Chaudhry, Sharif and Zardari and put them in front of a firing squad before international pressure piles up in favor of releasing them, so that we are at least rid of some of these leaches, or the really influential and dangerous ones at least.

Would you support the above? I don't really see how else the 'military' can become the 'harbinger of change' in Pakistan.
 
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Because right now, the government, the media and the civil society are like the three monkeys who hear no evil, see no evil and speak no evil, despite everything that is in front of them.

Because, for all my scathing attacks, the Pakistan military is the best collection of patriots I have seen ever, except the very top.

Because the military themselves have a duty to put right what they have had a great role in putting wrong in the first place.

There are different approaches taken by these three:

1. Government: Everything is alright, nothing is wrong, notice is being taken of everything - Doing nothing!

2. Civil Societies: Just ranting about their own problems, looking for their own benefits - Self Centered!

3. Media: Looks for everything negative, makes mountains out of sand grains, looking for increased TRP - Self Centered!

So, in short, non of them are really looking to correct the situation..
 
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Without forcing them to change (and the 'how to do that' goes back to the questions posed by you in your last post, which, IMO, is a constructive topic the senior Pakistani posters can, and should, spend time on) there can be no way to bring about 'long term change', democratically at least.

But here you are arguing for the 'military to intervene in the running of the State'.

Here is my quick and simple thought on how the 'Army' could try and 'fix' Pakistan's structural weaknesses - Army coup, change system of government to Presidential (and Federal, keeping in place the NFC and other provincial accords currently enjoying a degree of support across the board), and make local governments constitutional, along with putting all intelligence and security agencies (military, para military, law enforcement) under 'bipartisan' committees (at Federal and Provincial levels), similar to the Supreme Court Justice nomination process.

But that requires a 'Coup', and there is no guarantee that the same old faces will no again be elected and overthrow the changes brought about by the military under the guise of 'dictator imposed anti-democracy changes'. I suppose that while the military is 'violating the constitution', it could also round up every Wadera, Sardar, Chaudhry, Sharif and Zardari and put them in front of a firing squad before international pressure piles up in favor of releasing them, so that we are at least rid of some of these leaches, or the really influential and dangerous ones at least.

Would you support the above? I don't really see how else the 'military' can become the 'harbinger of change' in Pakistan.

On short term basis, it will work wonders

On long term basis, we will have bundle of 'political shaheeds' who 'sacrificed' there lives for democracy..

we have been suffering from some 'political shaheeds' for over 30 years already.. i don't think that we can afford more..
 
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On short term basis, it will work wonders

On long term basis, we will have bundle of 'political shaheeds' who 'sacrificed' there lives for democracy..

we have been suffering from some 'political shaheeds' for over 30 years already.. i don't think that we afford more..
Well then, we are back to 'bring about change democratically', which means that Pakistanis have to be educated and educate themselves about the political options they have, outside of the PML-N, PPP and PML-Q, and vote them in come election time and pressure them to enact changes along the lines of those outlined.
 
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Well then, we are back to 'bring about change democratically', which means that Pakistanis have to be educated and educate themselves about the political options they have, outside of the PML-N, PPP and PML-Q, and vote them in come election time and pressure them to enact changes along the lines of those outlined.

Yes, apart from Military coup, democratic change is the only option, this is exactly what i have been talking about with VChang, it will take time, it will require us all to educate people, those who can, should do!

We have a big community of people who understand the situation, who are literate, who have logic, who have charisma, but the only problem is, they are lazy, they don't want to go out and work for betterment.. Our literate class is looking for spoon feeding..

As i told to VChang, i'm doing my bit honestly, so should everyone else, patriotism is not bad, it is good, religion is not bad, it is good, the only thing we need to do is to stay positive, and bring out positives from people we talk to.. negativity will take us down, positiveness will do wonders..

So it is time we stop looking for miracles and start developing and building the nation..
 
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Without forcing them to change (and the 'how to do that' goes back to the questions posed by you in your last post, which, IMO, is a constructive topic the senior Pakistani posters can, and should, spend time on) there can be no way to bring about 'long term change', democratically at least.

But here you are arguing for the 'military to intervene in the running of the State'.

Here is my quick and simple thought on how the 'Army' could try and 'fix' Pakistan's structural weaknesses - Army coup, change system of government to Presidential (and Federal, keeping in place the NFC and other provincial accords currently enjoying a degree of support across the board), and make local governments constitutional, along with putting all intelligence and security agencies (military, para military, law enforcement) under 'bipartisan' committees (at Federal and Provincial levels), similar to the Supreme Court Justice nomination process.

But that requires a 'Coup', and there is no guarantee that the same old faces will no again be elected and overthrow the changes brought about by the military under the guise of 'dictator imposed anti-democracy changes'. I suppose that while the military is 'violating the constitution', it could also round up every Wadera, Sardar, Chaudhry, Sharif and Zardari and put them in front of a firing squad before international pressure piles up in favor of releasing them, so that we are at least rid of some of these leaches, or the really influential and dangerous ones at least.

Would you support the above? I don't really see how else the 'military' can become the 'harbinger of change' in Pakistan.


I will be living here for now I think:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/nation...-structural-changes-pakistan.html#post1981293
 
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I am no longer looking for a solution since I have reasons to believe that it does not exist? Solution to what you ask? I think Araz said it best:



To make it crystal clear, I do NOT see any reason t

Oh No You dont get away so easily!!! You have written extensively and eloquently about the problems which afflict us. What is your solution or are you just here for a rant? If it is the latter then you are not worth wasting time on. If you care you must share!!
Whether the problem is going to be solved overnight or not or not at all is besides the point altogether!!!
Araz
 
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Oh No You dont get away so easily!!! You have written extensively and eloquently about the problems which afflict us. What is your solution or are you just here for a rant? If it is the latter then you are not worth wasting time on. If you care you must share!!
Whether the problem is going to be solved overnight or not or not at all is besides the point altogether!!!
Araz

Yessir!

I am not looking to get away with anything Sir.

We are already sharing here with AM's blessings:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/nation...-bring-about-structural-changes-pakistan.html
 
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Without forcing them to change (and the 'how to do that' goes back to the questions posed by you in your last post, which, IMO, is a constructive topic the senior Pakistani posters can, and should, spend time on) there can be no way to bring about 'long term change', democratically at least.

But here you are arguing for the 'military to intervene in the running of the State'.

Here is my quick and simple thought on how the 'Army' could try and 'fix' Pakistan's structural weaknesses - Army coup, change system of government to Presidential (and Federal, keeping in place the NFC and other provincial accords currently enjoying a degree of support across the board), and make local governments constitutional, along with putting all intelligence and security agencies (military, para military, law enforcement) under 'bipartisan' committees (at Federal and Provincial levels), similar to the Supreme Court Justice nomination process.

But that requires a 'Coup', and there is no guarantee that the same old faces will no again be elected and overthrow the changes brought about by the military under the guise of 'dictator imposed anti-democracy changes'. I suppose that while the military is 'violating the constitution', it could also round up every Wadera, Sardar, Chaudhry, Sharif and Zardari and put them in front of a firing squad before international pressure piles up in favor of releasing them, so that we are at least rid of some of these leaches, or the really influential and dangerous ones at least.

Would you support the above? I don't really see how else the 'military' can become the 'harbinger of change' in Pakistan.


Kindly add the names of all the dumb generals of the glorious Islamic army in this list, if you want to get rid of all the scoundrels then why their baaps should be spared. These mentally retarded wannabe Ghaznis and Ghoris have done more damage to this country than all the waderas and chodhris together.

In reality, waderas and Chodhris have become a convenient scapegoat for the army lackeys. The glorious Islamic army actually uses these landlords for its own 'political' purpose. Not too long ago another wannabe Temur Lung formed a political party comprised of the most corrupt landlords and Mullahs this Unislamic Republic had ever produced.
 
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What our Islam mongers don't seem to understand is the jihadi Pakistan army is going to be constantly under the gun, internally and externally - and it's not because as these Islamists wish to claim, that Pakistanis hate Islam - what Pakistanis want is a sane, effective army -- and an army that is more concerned about confession and sectarian concerns, is neither, professional, neither effective and is in the context it is in, not sane.

Why is it under threat internally? Having gone ideological, the Pakistan army instead of promoting the idea that all citizens are equal, actually promotes that citizens are not equal, that the consideration of confession and sect is primary - How does it do that? I refer you to the very motto this army has adopted. This motto is a reflection of the ethic that informs the army, the ethic that decides careers.

So why would a majority Muslim country not adopt a Jihadi ethic? Primarily because it is in the interests of a group to obscure the differences between Islam, the religion of Faith in God, on one hand Islam-ism, a political ideology that seeks to cloak it's ideology of political violence in the idiom of Islam. from 1947 to 1979, the Pakistan army did not use any such ideological orientation, the heinous coup d'etat of the Jamaati general Zia ul Haq, followed by the Islamization project, ensured that the Pakistan army would be developed on the ideology of Islam-ism and in particular be imbued with a jihadi ethic.

But why is the jihadi Pakistan army a bone of contention?

Because it is divisive, it acts against the very unity of Pakistan and the reason is because the ideology of Islamism is both enemy seeking and enemy making. Look at what has become of "Islamic" Pakistan and please also look at what has become of Islam itself in Pakistan - we no longer know which Islam, which sect, which shariah - because each of these ideas (enemy seeking and enemy making - need for the perpetuation and justification of the ideology) now finds multiple owners, with Pakistan army being one set of owners and the religious political parties another major set and the Islamist insurgents, yet another major set, along with thousands of others clerics and "non-state" actors, each with their version.

Critical readers and some apologists will suggest that I have used a broad brush to paint Islamism with, how can we be responsive that this charge? Lets look at the the record in Pakistan, is there is a counter Islamist narrative, which argues that the use of Islam as a political tool, infused with violence, is counter to the very notion of Islam (Peace)? -- See, if there were such a counter narrative of national significance, we would have ot concede that we have painted the ideology with a broad brush, but unfortunately, there isn't one.

Now we have positioned the Jihadi Pakistan army against Islamists use term that army to be APOSTATE - please, please think about this incredible development - this internal contradiction is a mortal threat to the army - and this is also the primary reason the state and the Pakistan army, even after 10 years of fighting the Islamist, is not able to come up with a narrative to justify how a "Islamic" Jihadi army is at war with Islamist and Jihadists.

Ok but why would such a Jihadi army be under constant threat from external players??

Because it is not seen as a national army, that is to say it is fundamentally illegitimate in the eyes of those whom it must win over Key board and other kinds of Islamists are very different from the real one, the real ones are not reading this argument, they never ever will - if the Pakistan army is seen as APOSTATE, what possible interest will those of have done this have in such discussions as this one?? And of course, as you can see on these pages, the same applies to the Jihadi army and it's apologists.

Because Islamism is fundamentally violent, enemy seeking and enemy making, neither tha Pakistan state nor the Jihadi army can be trusted to be a part of any meaningful part of any international political and economic construct - and it must win it's position by constant threat of use of force, of coercion - Is this other than the pattern we see in the kinds of positions the Jihadi Pakistan army continues to take??

Friends, the argument is super uncomplicated - Pakistan are a talent nation, the Pakistan army's foundations were never Islamist, However, since 1979, not by popular or democratic means but by conspiracy and illegitimately, the orientation of the Pakistan army was forcefully changed. The ISI is composed of talented Pakistanis, but as a agency of the Jihadi army, it is also imbued with the same ethic -- to save Pakistan, to save the Army and her agencies, the contagion that is Islamist ethic, must be removed.
 
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Kindly add the names of all the dumb generals of the glorious Islamic army in this list, if you want to get rid of all the scoundrels then why their baaps should be spared. These mentally retarded wannabe Ghaznis and Ghoris have done more damage to this country than all the waderas and chodhris together.

In reality, waderas and Chodhris have become a convenient scapegoat for the army lackeys. The glorious Islamic army actually uses these landlords for its own 'political' purpose. Not too long ago another wannabe Temur Lung formed a political party comprised of the most corrupt landlords and Mullahs this Unislamic Republic had ever produced.

The 'Ghauris, Ghaznis and Temur's' of the Army pose no current threat to the country given that they are out of power. That is not the case with the current political class.

The 'firing squad' is not for the sake of 'punishment for past sins', but to prevent the current political class from returning to power.

At least in the Army the leadership continues to change - the Bhuttos, Zardaris, Sharifs and Chaudhries don't.
 
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What our Islam mongers don't seem to understand is the jihadi Pakistan army is going to be constantly under the gun, internally and externally
No.

It's just going to be 'under the gun' from uber liberals who needs to get some (serious) life.

See, this argument would hold water if the 'Islamision' of the Army would have produced uniformed suicide bombers, all out support for the fake 'Jiahdis' and out right conversions of moderate faujis to fundamentalists, but guess what, none of it is happening.

Only a few (like 4, may be 6 Officers/Men) so far have been reported who defected because they wanted to support the Jihadis? Also, if someone resigns and join whatever KKK, IRA or AQ, how does it becomes Army's problem? We should worry when we would have more of those Brigadiers that was caught recently. Most importantly, the 'support' (if any) for the likes of Haqqanis and others is not because of the 'Islamic Bond' that the likes of you so vigorously perceive exists between the "Eman, Taqwa, Jihad Fee Sabillilah" Army and the terrorists, BUT, because of other priorities.

Let's for a second assume that these 'strat assets' happened to be non-Muslims, then what? Would the military had withdrawn their support or linkage with them?
 
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