Pakistan’s ISI from the inside

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

What our Islam mongers don't seem to understand is the jihadi Pakistan army is going to be constantly under the gun, internally and externally - and it's not because as these Islamists wish to claim, that Pakistanis hate Islam - what Pakistanis want is a sane, effective army -- and an army that is more concerned about confession and sectarian concerns, is neither, professional, neither effective and is in the context it is in, not sane.

Why is it under threat internally? Having gone ideological, the Pakistan army instead of promoting the idea that all citizens are equal, actually promotes that citizens are not equal, that the consideration of confession and sect is primary - How does it do that? I refer you to the very motto this army has adopted. This motto is a reflection of the ethic that informs the army, the ethic that decides careers.

So why would a majority Muslim country not adopt a Jihadi ethic? Primarily because it is in the interests of a group to obscure the differences between Islam, the religion of Faith in God, on one hand Islam-ism, a political ideology that seeks to cloak it's ideology of political violence in the idiom of Islam. from 1947 to 1979, the Pakistan army did not use any such ideological orientation, the heinous coup d'etat of the Jamaati general Zia ul Haq, followed by the Islamization project, ensured that the Pakistan army would be developed on the ideology of Islam-ism and in particular be imbued with a jihadi ethic.

But why is the jihadi Pakistan army a bone of contention?

Because it is divisive, it acts against the very unity of Pakistan and the reason is because the ideology of Islamism is both enemy seeking and enemy making. Look at what has become of "Islamic" Pakistan and please also look at what has become of Islam itself in Pakistan - we no longer know which Islam, which sect, which shariah - because each of these ideas (enemy seeking and enemy making - need for the perpetuation and justification of the ideology) now finds multiple owners, with Pakistan army being one set of owners and the religious political parties another major set and the Islamist insurgents, yet another major set, along with thousands of others clerics and "non-state" actors, each with their version.

Critical readers and some apologists will suggest that I have used a broad brush to paint Islamism with, how can we be responsive that this charge? Lets look at the the record in Pakistan, is there is a counter Islamist narrative, which argues that the use of Islam as a political tool, infused with violence, is counter to the very notion of Islam (Peace)? -- See, if there were such a counter narrative of national significance, we would have ot concede that we have painted the ideology with a broad brush, but unfortunately, there isn't one.

Now we have positioned the Jihadi Pakistan army against Islamists use term that army to be APOSTATE - please, please think about this incredible development - this internal contradiction is a mortal threat to the army - and this is also the primary reason the state and the Pakistan army, even after 10 years of fighting the Islamist, is not able to come up with a narrative to justify how a "Islamic" Jihadi army is at war with Islamist and Jihadists.

Ok but why would such a Jihadi army be under constant threat from external players??

Because it is not seen as a national army, that is to say it is fundamentally illegitimate in the eyes of those whom it must win over Key board and other kinds of Islamists are very different from the real one, the real ones are not reading this argument, they never ever will - if the Pakistan army is seen as APOSTATE, what possible interest will those of have done this have in such discussions as this one?? And of course, as you can see on these pages, the same applies to the Jihadi army and it's apologists.

Because Islamism is fundamentally violent, enemy seeking and enemy making, neither tha Pakistan state nor the Jihadi army can be trusted to be a part of any meaningful part of any international political and economic construct - and it must win it's position by constant threat of use of force, of coercion - Is this other than the pattern we see in the kinds of positions the Jihadi Pakistan army continues to take??

Friends, the argument is super uncomplicated - Pakistan are a talent nation, the Pakistan army's foundations were never Islamist, However, since 1979, not by popular or democratic means but by conspiracy and illegitimately, the orientation of the Pakistan army was forcefully changed. The ISI is composed of talented Pakistanis, but as a agency of the Jihadi army, it is also imbued with the same ethic -- to save Pakistan, to save the Army and her agencies, the contagion that is Islamist ethic, must be removed.

Long rant, but you have yet to substantiate any of your allegations regarding the current Army being a 'Jihadi Army'.

 

[muse]

What our Islam mongers don't seem to understand is the jihadi Pakistan army is going to be constantly under the gun, internally and externally

See, this argument would hold water if the 'Islamision' of the Army would have produced uniformed suicide bombers, all out support for the fake 'Jiahdis' and out right conversions of moderate faujis to fundamentalists, but guess what, none of it is happening.

Only a few (like 4, may be 6 Officers/Men) so far have been reported who defected because they wanted to support the Jihadis? Also, if someone resigns and join whatever KKK, IRA or AQ, how does it becomes Army's problem? We should worry when we would have more of those Brigadiers that was caught recently. Most importantly, the 'support' (if any) for the likes of Haqqanis and others is not because of the 'Islamic Bond' that the likes of you so vigorously perceive exists between the "Eman, Taqwa, Jihad Fee Sabillilah" Army and the terrorists, BUT, because of other priorities.

Denial is not an argument Xeric.

The fact that Pakistani officers, you claim, are not suicide bombers, does not mean the that the Pakistani army is not imbued with a Jihadi ethic. The fact that the Pakistan Army has created Jihadi proxies, such as LeT, and it's new name JuD and the training and support of the Haqqani network, clearly marks the Pakistan army as a Jihadi army - if it proxies, it's puppets, engage in Jihadi operations, how can the puppeteer escape the charge?

You suggest that Eman, Taqwa and in particular Jihad, the substance of the Pakistan army motto, is designed for other priorities - since these priorities remain in the realm of the non-existent, we cannot comment on them - what we can comment on is the connection between the Islamist Jihadi ethic of the Pakistan army and it's creations - this damning reality is not amenable to denial but rather to reform. reform that must begin with realigning the priorities of the army to defend the Pakistan state and nation, it's citizens and their property, not considerations based on the ideology of Islamism, not confession and sect.

 

[Xeric]

Denial is not an argument Xeric.

It was not denial, rather a logical answer that ended with a question, which you obviously failed to address. Nothing new though, i know you guys cant answer questions, but just ask them.

The fact that Pakistani officers, you claim, are not suicide bombers, does not mean the that the Pakistani army is not imbued with a Jihadi ethic. The fact that the Pakistan Army has created Jihadi proxies, such as LeT, and it's new name JuD and the training and support of the Haqqani network, clearly marks the Pakistan army as a Jihadi army - if it proxies, it's puppets, engage in Jihadi operations, how can the puppeteer escape the charge?

^^ Now that's funny. You admit that one thing and then denies the same, words later.

See, that's what i was trying to "argue", creating proxies and Jihadis doesnt not primarily mean that the military is 'imbued with a Jihadi ethic'. That's way too much exaggeration, though i wont mind as it come from you for whom its a norm these days. By this definition the CIA would have been a Jihadi and the KGB a separatist as they both created something in the past. So, this begs the question; 'what if the Haqqanis were non-Muslims or for that matter Afg was a non-Muslim country', rather, people have been claiming the Pakistan has been supporting Hindu/Indian separatist/terrorist groups inside India, now what, the Army should also be labeled Hinduvta?

i know sometime one could go at an extreme tangent while arguing is support of a lie, but then you are better than that, believe me.

You suggest that Eman, Taqwa and in particular Jihad, the substance of the Pakistan army motto, is designed for other priorities

No i did not.

The motto has NOTHING to do with the fringing priorities that i mentioned. No need to extrapolate.

And therefore:

- since these priorities remain in the realm of the non-existent, we cannot comment on them - what we can comment on is the connection between the Islamist Jihadi ethic of the Pakistan army and it's creations - this damning reality is not amenable to denial but rather to reform. reform that must begin with realigning the priorities of the army to defend the Pakistan state and nation, it's citizens and their property, not considerations based on the ideology of Islamism, not confession and sect.

The rest of your post is a rant.

Thankyou.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The fact that the Pakistan Army has created Jihadi proxies, such as LeT, and it's new name JuD and the training and support of the Haqqani network, clearly marks the Pakistan army as a Jihadi army - if it proxies, it's puppets, engage in Jihadi operations, how can the puppeteer escape the charge?

You are distorting the issue to make your point - the Army created those groups not for the sake of 'Islamic conquest', but for the sake of fostering covert insurgencies against external enemies in disputed territory.

As for 'training and support of the Haqqani network', you'll have to provide some credible evidence from a neutral source to support that allegation, post 2001 at least - simply posting distortions and lies does not make your claims the truth.

You suggest that Eman, Taqwa and in particular Jihad, the substance of the Pakistan army motto, is designed for other priorities - since these priorities remain in the realm of the non-existent, we cannot comment on them - what we can comment on is the connection between the Islamist Jihadi ethic of the Pakistan army and it's creations - this damning reality is not amenable to denial but rather to reform. reform that must begin with realigning the priorities of the army to defend the Pakistan state and nation, it's citizens and their property, not considerations based on the ideology of Islamism, not confession and sect.

The 'creations of the Army' can be handled easily with well equipped, trained and independent (of political influence) law enforcement and judicial institutions - for that we need reforms on the civilian side, which you refuse to acknowledge or prioritize in your irrational bashing spree against the military.

 

[Porus]

The 'Ghauris, Ghaznis and Temur's' of the Army pose no current threat to the country given that they are out of power. That is not the case with the current political class.

The 'firing squad' is not for the sake of 'punishment for past sins', but to prevent the current political class from returning to power.

At least in the Army the leadership continues to change - the Bhuttos, Zardaris, Sharifs and Chaudhries don't.

The wannabe Ghoris and Ghaznis are still in power when they are officially out of power. The army generals are still pulling the strings from the safety of their barracks - I mean from their comfortable air-conditioned bungalows of their various defence societies.

The desired result can never be achieved unless their khaki clad baaps are also given a chance to have the taste of their own bullets. Look, this is indispensable if you are really interested in saving this country.

Have you ever thought that there would be no Sharifs, Zardaris or Chodhries in the first place if the dumb army generals had concentrated on their real job - but running property businesses, cereal plants and dirty politics seem to be far more lucrative and interesting.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The wannabe Ghoris and Ghaznis are still in power when they are officially out of power. The army generals are still pulling the strings from the safety of their barracks - I mean from their comfortable air-conditioned bungalows of their various defence societies.

Please do explain how the 'retired Generals' are 'pulling strings in government' from retirement.

Have you ever thought that there would be no Sharifs, Zardaris or Chodhries in the first place if the dumb army generals had concentrated on their real job - but running property businesses, cereal plants and dirty politics seem to be far more lucrative and interesting.

The past is irrelevant - Ayub, Yahya, Zia and Musharraf are gone, as are ZA Bhutto and Benazir - and they retain no influence either in the military or government - the current corrupt political class and political leadership is however still there, and threatens to continue to remain for decades more perhaps, destroying even more of the country than it has currently.

Just look at the shenanigans of the current PPP government - an outright rejection of the rule of law by claiming 'Parliament is Supreme over everythin', rejecting even the orders of the Supreme Court.

This is not 'democracy', it is a 'parliamentary dictatorship'.

 

[VCheng]

Please do explain how the 'retired Generals' are 'pulling strings in government' from retirement.

The past is irrelevant - Ayub, Yahya, Zia and Musharraf are gone, as are ZA Bhutto and Benazir - and they retain no influence either in the military or government - the current corrupt political class and political leadership is however still there, and threatens to continue to remain for decades more perhaps, destroying even more of the country than it has currently.

Just look at the shenanigans of the current PPP government - an outright rejection of the rule of law by claiming 'Parliament is Supreme over everythin', rejecting even the orders of the Supreme Court.

This is not 'democracy', it is a 'parliamentary dictatorship'.

How is the bolded part any different than what I say?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

How is the bolded part any different than what I say?

The difference would be that I remain optimistic and hopeful that change will occur, while also acknowledging the issues facing Pakistan. With you, as is the case in the other thread, there is no point discussing anything regarding 'change and reform in Pakistan', since your response to everything essentially boils down to 'nothing will change'.

So please forgive the rest of us our naivete and optimism in hoping for the best and continuing to discuss ways and means to bring about change.

 

[VCheng]

The difference would be that I remain optimistic and hopeful that change will occur, while also acknowledging the issues facing Pakistan. With you, as is the case in the other thread, there is no point discussing anything regarding 'change and reform in Pakistan', since your response to everything essentially boils down to 'nothing will change'.

So please forgive the rest of us our naivete and optimism in hoping for the best and continuing to discuss ways and means to bring about change.

Fair enough. Would you please share the grounds for your optimism and hope, so that my naivete may benefit from this wisdom?

 

[muse]

It does not matter whether the apologists try to point fingers at the civilians or whether they argue that the past is irrelevant - what cannot be escaped is the fact that Islamist ethic pervades the army - the generals, intellectuals that they are, have chosen a vehicle, islamism, which is the equivalent of riding the tiger - the net effect is that so riddled by internal dissension is the army that the Pakistan army (see Gen Durrani admission) that the Pakistan army has chosen to be seen as incompetent rather than complicit with the US in the assassination of Bin Laden.

The internal contradiction is a threat to the army and as such to Pakistan - only a reorientation of the army away from islamist ideology, can save it.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Fair enough. Would you please share the grounds for your optimism and hope, so that my naivete may benefit from this wisdom?

I see no point, since you have made clear that you see no hope for change.

And I did in fact mention some of what makes me 'hopeful and optimistic' in the other thread. Perhaps you should read through it again.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

only a reorientation of the army away from islamist ideology, can save it.

Please explain how?

How will the above result in the current political class implementing reforms and changes that boost security, strengthen institutions, challenge religious extremism and crime?

I have pointed out tangible policy changes on the civilian government side that can produce changes and improve Pakistan's standing and state - how exactly will 'reforms in the military' accomplish more than, or the same even, than the proposals I outlined?

 

[VCheng]

I see no point, since you have made clear that you see no hope for change.

And I did in fact mention some of what makes me 'hopeful and optimistic' in the other thread. Perhaps you should read through it again.

I have read your posts with attention.

What I have made clear are the grounds upon which I state that I have no realistic hopes for change. If those grounds change, so will my opinion, since I evaluate my positions continuously.

 

[Porus]

The past is irrelevant - Ayub, Yahya, Zia and Musharraf are gone, as are ZA Bhutto and Benazir - and they retain no influence either in the military or government - the current corrupt political class and political leadership is however still there, and threatens to continue to remain for decades more perhaps, destroying even more of the country than it has currently.

I beg to differ with you. Others may have died without leaving a trace but shaitan Zia (astaghfirullah) is an exception. The impacts of his myopic "policies" are so profound and perennial that almost after three decades of his mubarak death every single problem Pakistan is confronting has its roots in his hollow skull.

Just look at the shenanigans of the current PPP government - an outright rejection of the rule of law by claiming 'Parliament is Supreme over everythin', rejecting even the orders of the Supreme Court.

This is not 'democracy', it is a 'parliamentary dictatorship'.

Yar, we have heard something like that before. The memories are still fresh in the minds of gullible Pakistanis when a self-appointed messiah used to tell us the stories of shame democracies which he wanted to extirpate.

The recent ongoing fight between the judiciary and executive happens in every unstable democratic countries. Let them fight and learn from their own mistakes.

 

[Bratva]

I beg to differ with you. Others may have died without leaving a trace but shaitan Zia (astaghfirullah) is an exception. The impacts of his myopic "policies" are so profound and perennial that almost after three decades of his mubarak death every single problem Pakistan is confronting has its roots in his hollow skull.



Yar, we have heard something like that before. The memories are still fresh in the minds of gullible Pakistanis when a self-appointed messiah used to tell us the stories of shame democracies which he wanted to extirpate.

The recent ongoing fight between the judiciary and executive happens in every unstable democratic countries. Let them fight and learn from their own mistakes.

Pakistaani Awam ka kaya kasoor hay Wo ghaltiya kari jaye or Hum Pistey Jay Chaaki may? Political Government make mistakes because it's a nascent democracy but no body think about the common people. that by the time politicians learn their mistakes, People would be so fed up and would be frustrated that they might look towards army, or there believe on democracy will erode.