Pakistan’s ISI from the inside

[VCheng]

I concur entirely - yet another success brought to you by Pakistan army -- got into something that it ran poorly, stupidly, messed about with ideas that it dd not understand and created misery for millions and degradation and shame for the Pakistani nation - It's time for the Pakistan army to be reconstructed as a national army - nothing more.

What utter heresy! You should be burnt at the stake! (j/k).

Well, I would be called much worse had I typed those words, all of them very true BTW.

 

[SQ8]

See once again, we come back to the source - reform ISI, can't ! Why not? ISI is army, so the reform must begin with Army


If even after a period of 10 years, the motto, the ethic the army promotes, is Islamist, what does that say about the army?

The evidence is that new units are required - that the Pakistan army cannot handle a bunch of tribals is ridiculous, however, the point is that it is unwilling -- why else would new units and especially the police be required to do the job ?

It will be argued that the army is oriented to the Indian threat -- and of course it will be countered by "there you again", the horrible Hindu threat, the army's not so secret weapon and of course how we need to islamize so that we can keep things to together, much like it worked in Bangla.

Wrong ideas, bad ideas --- a hallmark of the Pakistan army

You gentlemen have been going back and forth on Jihadi elements.. and reform for the army.(and eventually the ISI).
What I ask is.. that while being India centric in its inception, whether as a necessity or conspiracy if you may.
the PA needs the idea of Jihad for its soldier to be effective...
Every base, every piece of equipment.. every war cry is based on Islamic history.
From the cries of "Allah o Akbar" at an attack.. to the verses written on every training center and base.
This isnt a skin you can take out and graft a new one on.
Its the skeleton on which this Army is now built... whether good or bad.. its there.
The Idea can no longer be on removing this element.. but rather using it correctly for the right purposes rather than the lies and deceit that have fed its being. Which will end up with the core problem of defining what common terms do Pakistani's define themselves.. and on what common terms do the Muslims in Pakistan define themselves...since no Pakistani Hindu or Christan or Zoroastrian has killed each other that much over differing definitions of their religion.
You cant take the Jihad out of the NCO.. but you can take a look at the system that creates an officer.. and where the black sheep find the loopholes to get ahead .

The whole Jihad thing worked fine in Bangla as well till our Racist president decided to go all out.

 

[VCheng]

You gentlemen have been going back and forth on Jihadi elements.. and reform for the army.(and eventually the ISI).
What I ask is.. that while being India centric in its inception, whether as a necessity or conspiracy if you may.
the PA needs the idea of Jihad for its soldier to be effective...
Every base, every piece of equipment.. every war cry is based on Islamic history.
From the cries of "Allah o Akbar" at an attack.. to the verses written on every training center and base.
This isnt a skin you can take out and graft a new one on.
Its the skeleton on which this Army is now built... whether good or bad.. its there.
The Idea can no longer be on removing this element.. but rather using it correctly for the right purposes rather than the lies and deceit that have fed its being. Which will end up with the core problem of defining what common terms do Pakistani's define themselves.. and on what common terms do the Muslims in Pakistan define themselves...since no Pakistani Hindu or Christan or Zoroastrian has killed each other that much over differing definitions of their religion.
You cant take the Jihad out of the NCO.. but you can take a look at the system that creates an officer.. and where the black sheep find the loopholes to get ahead .

The whole Jihad thing worked fine in Bangla as well till our Racist president decided to go all out.

Now some may be able to appreciate why I stated that the much sought after solution may not even exist unless the boundaries of the problem are re-defined drastically.

 

[Last Hope]

To support Armed Forces and ISI is the Need of the Time
​

“Being the most strongest, organized and disciplined institution of the country, the Army is hope of general people of Pakistan only in that Era when the Politicians are on Chair.
When the triple one brigade comes in action and martial law is imposed the real story starts after that. The Politicians who backed the generals and assured them of their ‘full co-operation’ left them after once the generals are being fired.

Besides all these no one can deny the sacrifices made by the armed forces of Pakistan, they are always on front foot when ever the nation is in trouble,whether by the natural or any other disaster.

Taking the data of the recent flood in 2010, 60,000 Army troops were employed in Rescue and Relief Operations, Over 100 Army Relief Camps were working across the country, and Over 8 lakhs (0.8 M) people were rescued in these operations by the armed forces.

Making the history, the armed forces continued the rescue operation and all available C-130 Planeshave were dedicated for Relief Operations, 1000 boats including 50 life saving Naval boats were busy in rescue operations around the clock.
Pakistan Armed Forces Personnel donated their one day sallery for their flood effected brethern.
Over 300 Army doctors were providing treatment to a number of patients,
Army’s veternary mobile teams are vaccinating animals.

This is the not only Example when armed forces made history, operations carried out in the Sawat valley, South Waziristan, where according to ISPR 2821 Officers/Jawns were being martyred and 8765 Officers/Jawans were wounded during the operations.
It is the noteworthy figure of sacrifices made by the Pakistani forces in operations, these operations were really the need of the time not only to save Pakistani nation from the terrorism but the make whole world safe.

In this regard, Our Forces are not only the front line defence for Regional but for global peace as well.
Having a look of the successful operations of Pakistan’s premier intelligence agency ISI, (Inter Services Intelligence) , which is really a nightmare for the enemies of motherland, is the first defense line for global peace.

The contributions of ISI with regard to curbing terrorism in the region are 2nd to none. In the past, ISI had to confront a variety of terrorist and subversive operations, launched in Pakistan and in the region by different intelligence and terrorist organizations of the world.

If I am not wrong, the article published in the international media on in April 20th, 2009, renowned American writer Sandra Johnson has termed the ISI as the first defense line of the entire world at the moment. She had urged the global community and particularly the American government to help and support ISI as this agency is fighting the war for the cause of peace and security across the globe.

Sandra Johnson also appreciated the abilities of the current ISI Chief General Ahmad Shujaa Pasha and termed as the best professional to achieve the goals and the ISI as the best and the only spy organization to produce the best possible results in the war against terrorism.

This is the time to support our Armed Forces, Our intelligence agencies. These are our own people, fighting for us,fighting for you, fighting for me,fighting for motherland Pakistan”

 

[VCheng]

To support Armed Forces and ISI is the Need of the Time
​

“Being the most strongest, organized and disciplined institution of the country, the Army is hope of general people of Pakistan only in that Era when the Politicians are on Chair.
When the triple one brigade comes in action and martial law is imposed the real story starts after that. The Politicians who backed the generals and assured them of their ‘full co-operation’ left them after once the generals are being fired.

Besides all these no one can deny the sacrifices made by the armed forces of Pakistan, they are always on front foot when ever the nation is in trouble,whether by the natural or any other disaster.

Taking the data of the recent flood in 2010, 60,000 Army troops were employed in Rescue and Relief Operations, Over 100 Army Relief Camps were working across the country, and Over 8 lakhs (0.8 M) people were rescued in these operations by the armed forces.

Making the history, the armed forces continued the rescue operation and all available C-130 Planeshave were dedicated for Relief Operations, 1000 boats including 50 life saving Naval boats were busy in rescue operations around the clock.
Pakistan Armed Forces Personnel donated their one day sallery for their flood effected brethern.
Over 300 Army doctors were providing treatment to a number of patients,
Army’s veternary mobile teams are vaccinating animals.

This is the not only Example when armed forces made history, operations carried out in the Sawat valley, South Waziristan, where according to ISPR 2821 Officers/Jawns were being martyred and 8765 Officers/Jawans were wounded during the operations.
It is the noteworthy figure of sacrifices made by the Pakistani forces in operations, these operations were really the need of the time not only to save Pakistani nation from the terrorism but the make whole world safe.

In this regard, Our Forces are not only the front line defence for Regional but for global peace as well.
Having a look of the successful operations of Pakistan’s premier intelligence agency ISI, (Inter Services Intelligence) , which is really a nightmare for the enemies of motherland, is the first defense line for global peace.

The contributions of ISI with regard to curbing terrorism in the region are 2nd to none. In the past, ISI had to confront a variety of terrorist and subversive operations, launched in Pakistan and in the region by different intelligence and terrorist organizations of the world.

If I am not wrong, the article published in the international media on in April 20th, 2009, renowned American writer Sandra Johnson has termed the ISI as the first defense line of the entire world at the moment. She had urged the global community and particularly the American government to help and support ISI as this agency is fighting the war for the cause of peace and security across the globe.

Sandra Johnson also appreciated the abilities of the current ISI Chief General Ahmad Shujaa Pasha and termed as the best professional to achieve the goals and the ISI as the best and the only spy organization to produce the best possible results in the war against terrorism.

This is the time to support our Armed Forces, Our intelligence agencies. These are our own people, fighting for us,fighting for you, fighting for me,fighting for motherland Pakistan”

As if any more proof is needed for "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" (Samuel Johnson).

 

[AAtish]

It is not a contradictory statement my friend -- staying neutral does not necessarily mean siding with China or otherwise but keeping the status quot at any given time. If we seem desperate to give one to China than it would be logical to give access to its nemesis in the region to maintain the status quot.

My friend, and this from the bottom of my heart -- diplomacy is not a child's play and there are no absolutes in there - -just interests. US and for that matter China are not our Mamoos or even KSA!!!! They have interest in the region or specifically with us.

China wants to have access to shortest possible route to African oil where it has huge concessions in a number of countries about to go hot. At the same time it wants to have some control on worlds 65% of oil flowing out of this region as a counter balance against possible choke off of its trade routes in and around Straits of Malacca and Singapore.

US while progressively moving away from dependency on gulf oil, still has legitimate interests to ensure access to free flowing oil from the region for its allies, globally. While it squarely sits inside the gulf (Bahrain) it is in danger of being bottled-up once a flare -up with China happens. It requires a facility near the mouth of the gulf to monitor or if this is not possible than deny everyone else the chance to do the same. It is a classic chess game.

Coupled with concerted effort to replace China as its largest global trading partner in the long run with India, it is developing India as a classic "Rope-a-Dope" patsy against China.

China on the other hand is fast gobbling up all and any rare earth resources around the world (95% known rare earth deposits are in the control of China) to ensure US dependency on China remains as it is. To counter balance the Patsy game, China is developing Pakistan as an irritant against India to keep them off balance.

There is nothing wrong with this if the players in question are happy with their roles.

However, the question is should Pakistan again dabble in a global game or for that matter can it afford to at this point in time or can it take that kind of pressure from both India and US come crunch time. Can it depend upon China to come to our real aid and not just send us some planes or boats. After all they did not deploy their forces against India in 71' nor did they back us in Kargil.

I have tried to explain here the " The New Great Game" and the role of China -- it is a lot more complicated and has a number of variables that can not be discussed at this point in time as it would require a lot of time and effort. But I have tried to put forward the basic crux/essence of the situation panning out today.

Do we want to form another alliance based upon the use of Pakistan as a patsy yet again but this time from our friends from the east. I guess thrice is not enough to whet our appetite for such a role or maybe we are a dutiful lot of soldiers destined to click our heals for the highest bidder.

We keep on playing from the same play book -- what I am suggesting is more out of box, a more imaginative approach to get what we want out of this Great Game without burning our fingers this time around.

BTW have we thought of the Mullah and his views on going east????

Interesting! What is the criteria of being a ‘think tank’ on this forum? There are others and then I get to see this post of you. Please take it as a complement..

Seeing your post in broader prospective, many questions stay unanswered.. but if I take the bottom line, you are suggesting to play neutral and act as a field for others to play on..

Chess? I guess you are suggesting Pakistan to rather act as a chess board, not a player or even a bead.. symbolically speaking, if a bead is taken, it’s the board which feels the bang.. the end result? Board just gets banged till the game finishes.. hope you get my point…

You cannot be more right in stating that currently a global chess game is being played, if you dig my previous posts I have stated this many a times since I joined this forum few months ago. USA was the sole super power after the demise of USSR, but now the ‘sleeping giant’ is waking up and ‘mara haathi’ (dead elephant) is helping it out, so we are looking at a possible bi-polar (maybe tri-polar, if Europe managed to deal with their financial crises) world again.

Question is, what should Pakistan as a country do? There are four possible scenarios..

1. Act as a puppet for current master – USA
2. Select a new friend (read master) – China
3. Create a ring for both giants to wrestle – China & USA (your suggestion)
4. Look purely for Pakistan’s benefit – Pakistan

Following is a brief look at the four scenarios:

1. USA
I will not go into the history pre-9/11, I will only discuss current (and possible future) scenario.
Since 9/11 USA has acted more like an enemy of Pakistan, not because Pakistan was not cooperative, but because its interests and future plans had India as the centre of its policies. Destabilising Pakistan was in greater good for USA. We have seen its systematically destructive approach towards Pakistan, both militarily and media lead campaign to portray Pakistan as a hostile nation.
We can sing the ‘friendly’ songs as much as we want but the facts are that Pakistan’s importance in this region for USA has long gone. With the destruction of USSR the fear of white bear vanished.
Next on the list (possible super power) is China, Pakistan being close ally of a possible rival does feel uneasy, and to be honest with you, Pakistan going against China is not probable. This leaves India as the only option for USA to pursue friendship with, the only problem with India in the eyes of US is that it had (has?) close ties with Russia, so work on that aspect is also in progress (offers, defence contracts, praises, support etc.), this has not had a good impact on Indo-Russia relationship, it has started deteriorating (cancellation of few deals for a start).
Consolidated and stable Pakistan is a threat to US’s (read India’s) interests in the region as USA (India) wants to be the leading power of the region.
As far as oil is concerned, you obviously have mentioned Bahrain, let me add the major player KSA to the list for you. Iraq is already in their control and now work on Syria and Libya is under process. I suggest you pick the map and look into the chain of countries which are under attack (and look for next possible ones).
Bottom line, USA will not need to even come to Arabian sea in few years time in regards to oil.
In short, USA has lost its interest in Pakistan and whatever strategic importance it had to offer. Being continents away, it doesn’t matter to them if this region is in turmoil or peaceful anyways. They only play for USA and that stays safe either way.

2. China
I am not going to sing the songs of Pak-China ‘dosti’ here, so please consider what comes in the following lines.
China has been developing itself for quite some time now, economically as well as militarily (as you have so rightly stated already), it held itself together and watched the event turn in front of it, kudos to them for being logical and factual.
You asked why they did not helped Pakistan in ’71 and in Kargil? They are not as stupid as our politicians and civilians, they calculate, that is the best thing about Chinese people, had they helped us at that time, we might have succeeded but then China would had gone back a couple of decades, which was not in their best interest. On the other hand, 71 was pure stupidity of our political system (has there ever been anything not stupid in Pakistan’s politics?), so we were bound to take the heat for that, so was Kargil.
As I said before, I’m not going to talk about ‘friends’ or ‘friendship’, I’m going to talk about ‘interests’.
Moving on, at that time, the world was not uni-polar and the balance of power was there, there was nothing for China to play for, except destruction. Emotions are good but they make you weak! Chinese played smart and are now in totally different league.
Coming to the recent times, China holds a good deal of wealth, is on the verge of becoming the alternate super power (they might not want to, but they will have to), so they are bound to play in global politics now. You might say that bound is a strong word, they can just walk out, they can’t, because once a country comes to this level, it is considered a ‘possible’ threat and other powers will try to destabilise it. Self defence? Well whatever suits you, you can call it that.
Coming to Pakistan, China shares borders with Pakistan, has had good and mutually beneficial relations with it since beginning and stood up for Pakistan on many critical situations, though there were China’s own benefits in that too. At the moment, Russia is supporting China and so are the other ‘countable’ countries in the region except India and Afghanistan (for obvious reasons).
The only possible threat to China is from India (USA?), there cannot be ‘friendly’ relations between China and India in near future, India’s reluctance in problem solving is historic. On top of that, another player has been added to ensure that this friendship never happens. It is not in the ‘greater good’ of the world (USA).
To tackle this foreseeable threat, China has started its movement, recent augmented support of Sri Lanka, Nepal, Burma, and Bangladesh shows its approach, together with stance to defend Pakistan and the slogan of ‘Any attack on Islamabad will be considered an attack on Beijing’ shows that China no longer wishes to stay neutral and is up for a chess game (as you have said). Please bear in mind that this, in no sense, means that China will give financial aid to Pakistan or its corrupt political leaders. Neither will it start a war on behalf of Pakistan, but it will surely respond if an active war is imposed on Pakistan to protect its own interests. This is one of the reason along with Pakistan’s nuclear deterrent why US and NATO forces have not invaded Pakistan yet, when they have done so on comparatively less reasons (or no reasons at all) on other countries.

3. USA and China
I honestly don’t know why and how you came up to this conclusion, there cannot be two masters of same land, if there are, then a clash is bound to occur as interests will clash, and when both have nothing to lose of their own, they will go all out. I am not talking about ‘war’ here, I am talking about stability and personal interests, with the corruption level already at its peak, this will allow the corruption to achieve new heights, the ones never seen before.

No sir, your suggestion is placing the nation in direct line of fire, I would rather have you explain clearly what you meant by the following:

what I am suggesting is more out of box, a more imaginative approach to get what we want out of this Great Game without burning our fingers this time around.

Because not only fingers, may Allah forbids, we might end up distributed in small fractions. Forget about Sindh, Balochistan, Punjab and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, we might end up with Karachi, Haiderabad, Sukhar, Multan, Lahore, Quetta, Peshawar etc.

4. Pakistan
Now this is the approach I want to suggest, look for what is best for the country, without fear, without prejudice, without biases. Think central, think Pakistan!
At the moment, we are fighting the war of someone else, yes I know you’ll say that it is the direct reaction to what we sowed in 80s but quite honestly, at that time also we were in same kind of situation. It was either do or die (please do not come up with USSR never intended to come towards Pakistan, why did it invaded pro-USSR Afghanistan then?).
Pakistan needs to straighten its ‘Qibla’, it needs to break through the chains of slavery, and the biggest threat to its existence is financial/economic crisis. This has forced our ‘live’ nation to act as puppets. We need to get rid of it first.
Secondly, WoT has a profound negative effect on infrastructure, human life and living standards in Pakistan, funny thing is, we cannot quit it because the ‘master’ wants it to carry on when they are sitting and dining with the same people to whom they are asking us to fight. We need to quit this WoT and the only way to do so is by stating our intention, and then acting on it. I agree that the backlash would be severe but we can survive it, and I am not talking about full fledge war, there is no chance that US will wage a war with Pakistan (see China).
A systematic approach to reduce the debt can be taken, priority can be given to debts from hostile nations such as USA.
To nullify the pressure of breaking out of ‘friendship’ with USA, Pakistan needs to balance itself out by preferring China as it shares strategic and long term financial benefits for both countries. The God given corridor to ‘hot waters’ can be used to generate revenues.
There are many other steps that we need to take, but priority should be given to getting out of WoT on ASAP basis along with steps to pay off external debts.
As the old saying goes, when there is a will there is a way.

The Problem
It is neither the resources, nor it is external or internal debt.. Our problem is political!
The sooner we get rid of these American stooges, these traitors, the better it would be for the country.
I have no clue why people still follow these jokers and try to defend them, I have no clue what is making my nation blind to realities, why are we in denial of realities?.
If you have an answer for my question, please let me know. You are the think tank after all.
Mullah’s do not come in equation, bring stability to economy, make education free and available to everyone, your next generation would not be under these people.

Just my two cents..

 

[VCheng]

.................................... bring stability to economy, make education free and available to everyone, your next generation would not be under these people.

Just my two cents..

A very worthy two cents, but "stabilising the economy" and "making education free" are easier said than done. WHO is going to do that? The politicians? The Army? The feudals? The mullahs?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

See, you seem unwilling to acknowledge that it was the army that put Pakistan on the course of Islamization - and you refuse to acknowledge that ISI has been an instrument of the Islamization policy of the army -- Even now, brother man, tell us what is the motto of the army - Go ahead tell us all

See, I don't doubt where your heart is, but the arguments you offer, do not stand up to reality - that army motto tells you all you need to understand about this army's relationship to Islamization (read Radicalization of society)

Doesn't really matter who you blame for causing the rot, the fact of the matter is that the 'rot' is now societal - religious extremism mingling with, and in some cases enforcing or being enforced by, backward cultural norms.

Given that we are all agreed upon the fact that the military needs to remain out of government, the responsibility for addressing this rot lies with elected representatives, civil society, media and the judiciary. What we need the military to do is simply follow the direction laid out by the elected institutions, judiciary and society.

 

[VCheng]

Doesn't really matter who you blame for causing the rot, the fact of the matter is that the 'rot' is now societal - religious extremism mingling with, and in some cases enforcing or being enforced, by backward cultural norms.

Given that we are all agreed upon the fact that the military needs to remain out of government, the responsibility for addressing this rot lies with elected representatives, civil society, media and the judiciary. What we need the military to do is simply follow the direction laid out by the elected institutions, judiciary and society.

I agree 100% here.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

A little offtopic Sire. But you were way off topic here in your own post. as there is no girl here discussing matters

No, my post was relevant to the argument made by Muse regarding criticizm of the military - I was referring to posts revolving around time spent with one's significant other and drink choices etc.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

http://www.pakistanarmy.gov.pk/AWPReview/TextContent.aspx?pId=17&rnd=108

Iman, Taqwa, Jihad fisabillah

Some even say that Iman has been replaced by Qakeen

Anyway, this is what it says about IMAN:



Now, what if you are not a Muslim, but are a Pakistani? Now if authority to govern belongs to Allah, then of course the Al-Qaida and TTP are right, why are we fighting them, after all, the government of Pakistan is man made government and more importantly it's laws are man made and not divine, Shariah law????

And below is a piece from the Jihad stuff:



Once again, note the Islamist emphasis, If indeed Allah has lordship over the Earth, what does Allah need an Army for?? And if Allah in His role as Overlord, has the right to govern --- then the Pakistan government is by definition illegitimate, it is a government of man and worse still, a governm,ent not of religious scholars -- So are not the Talib and Al-Qaida in fact right to fight the Pakistan army??

And if Islamic law regulates Jihad, then this army can only be answerable to Islamic law - RIGHT?????

See, the idiot army has managed to get itself into another pickle - Zia is dead and gone, But the Pakistan army is as islamist as it was when Zia was alive -- and of course ISI is a agency of the army

Nothing but a complete re-orientation will suffice - you know it, I know it, we all know it - but unless some can work out the contradictions, this army isn't going anywhere.

Which elected parliament do you see calling for a 'change in the motto of the Army', when parliament can barely rise to condemn the cold blooded murders of its own Governors and ministers under the guise of 'blasphemy'?

It is not the Army's job to change its 'motto', it is the job of the elected representatives to amend the constitution of the State to end open discrimination against those who do not belong to a chosen few Islamic sects, and then also call for changes in the military, if the military does not understand and change by itself.

Changes in the military are lower down the order - you are putting the 'cart before the horse'.

 

[VCheng]

Which elected parliament do you see calling for a 'change in the motto of the Army', when parliament can barely rise to condemn the cold blooded murders of its own Governors and ministers under the guise of 'blasphemy'?

It is not the Army's job to change its 'motto', it is the job of the elected representatives to amend the constitution of the State to end open discrimination against those who do not belong to a chosen few Islamic sects, and then also call for changes in the military, if the military does not understand and change by itself.

Changes in the military are lower down the order - you are putting the 'cart before the horse'.

........ and here is more to support my assessment that a realistic solution may not exist in the present set-up.

 

[AAtish]

well well well.. i just finished 11 pages of ranting on Army and ISI by two people who were supporting each other on everything that came to mind.. Muse.. you are a 'think tank'.. would you mind translating 'la ilaha illallah' for me please? this is the first part of 'kalma'.. something which every Muslim of the world recites..

And which portion of the Army's moto you want to change? Iman? Jihad? or Taqwah?

Waiting for your answer..

 

[AAtish]

A very worthy two cents, but "stabilising the economy" and "making education free" are easier said than done. WHO is going to do that? The politicians? The Army? The feudals? The mullahs?

Do you need them to do this?? apparently the democracy you so love provides you with "voting" rights.. its your fault that you gave the right to illiterate and backward people.. they stand shoulder to shoulder with a very learned person and vote.. even Islam doesn't gives this right.. in Islam a vote for learned person weighs more than an illiterate person.. so who's fault is it? Islam's or Democracy's?

I'm expecting next post of yours talking about unequal rights for humans in Islam now

 

[VCheng]

well well well.. i just finished 11 pages of ranting on Army and ISI by two people who were supporting each other on everything that came to mind.. Muse.. you are a 'think tank'.. would you mind translating 'la ilaha illallah' for me please? this is the first part of 'kalma'.. something which every Muslim of the world recites..

And which portion of the Army's moto you want to change? Iman? Jihad? or Taqwah?

Waiting for your answer..

I assume you do not want to hear my opinion?

Aw, I feel so rejected!