Pakistan’s ISI from the inside

[AAtish]

How about a motto that is based on this concept:

And how does it contradicts with Iman, Taqwah and Jihad fi sabeelillah? As far as i can understand nothing contradicts here.. please let me know if there is something..

On the contrary, the Motto which the Army has right now helps in upholding constitution..

 

[VCheng]

And how does it contradicts with Iman, Taqwah and Jihad fi sabeelillah? As far as i can understand nothing contradicts here.. please let me know if there is something..

On the contrary, the Motto which the Army has right now helps in upholding constitution..

Simple. Defending Pakistan against "external aggression or threat of war" is much more narrowly defined without any religious connotations, whereas Iman, Taqwah and Jihad are a great religious over-reach compared to the actual mission of the Army as defined by the Constitution.

Of course, it can be argued that, may be, it would be better to change the Constitution to redefine the role to be as broad and religious as the present motto.

I am not taking any sides on this one.

 

[VCheng]

...................

I'm still waiting On Topic for VCheng's answer

Post #189?

 

[AAtish]

Simple. Defending Pakistan against "external aggression or threat of war" is much more narrowly defined without any religious connotations, whereas Iman, Taqwah and Jihad are a great religious over-reach compared to the actual mission of the Army as defined by the Constitution.

Of course, it can be argued that, may be, it would be better to change the Constitution to redefine the role to be as broad and religious as the present motto.

I am not taking any sides on this one.

hahaha.. playing safe.. are we?

As i said before, Army's current motto enables it to uphold what constitution dictates.. an NO they are not over-reach in any form.. Iman is the basis of being Mulsim, Taqwah is being pious, righteous, truthful, and such.. and Jihad is (in Army) to protect the motherland fearlessly, even if one has to sacrifice his own life.. If one dies, he is a shaheed, if he lives and achieves success he is ghazi..

So we neither need to change Constitution nor the motto..

I guess you should now take both sides .. both are correct!

 

[AAtish]

Post #189?

Got it and answered

 

[VCheng]

hahaha.. playing safe.. are we?

As i said before, Army's current motto enables it to uphold what constitution dictates.. an NO they are not over-reach in any form.. Iman is the basis of being Mulsim, Taqwah is being pious, righteous, truthful, and such.. and Jihad is (in Army) to protect the motherland fearlessly, even if one has to sacrifice his own life.. If one dies, he is a shaheed, if he lives and achieves success he is ghazi..

So we neither need to change Constitution nor the motto..

I guess you should now take both sides .. both are correct!

Do you realize that you just defined a good PA soldier as narrowly as a Muslim, a righteous one at that, willing to die. Is that a better definition of an army of Allah or the State of Pakistan?

Again, I am not preferring any side over the other.

 

[AAtish]

Do you realize that you just defined a good PA soldier as narrowly as a Muslim, a righteous one at that, willing to die. Is that a better definition of an army of Allah or the State of Pakistan?

Again, I am not preferring any side over the other.

So what kinda of soldier would you like? the one who runs away when faced with a bigger/stronger army or the one who fights fearlessly using his brain?

Soldiers are trained to fight and in fighting they know they can die, that is the path they chose! so if in serving their country and securing it from invader they die and get shahdah, would it be good or bad?

And i really did not get what you meant by "as narrowly as a Mulsim"? do you consider righteous Muslim to be a bad thing?

And No there is no specific definition, Jihad is Jihad but it has different levels, when you go to work, that is your jihad, when you try to leave bad habbits like smoking or drugs that is also Jihad, when you educate yourself that is also Jihad.. so my brother.. Army of Allah includes those who seek knowledge, those who earn halal living, those who fight for their country, those who restrict themselves from bad habits.. They are all Mujahideen.. The only requirement to be a mujahid is to be Muslim, then every bad thing you don't do or stop yourself from doing is considered Jihad

So even you (if you are a Muslim) are Mujahid in one way or the other.. and if you die in the line of your duty or accidently, you'll be shaheed..

 

[VCheng]

So what kinda of soldier would you like? the one who runs away when faced with a bigger/stronger army or the one who fights fearlessly using his brain?

Soldiers are trained to fight and in fighting they know they can die, that is the path they chose! so if in serving their country and securing it from invader they die and get shahdah, would it be good or bad?

And i really did not get what you meant by "as narrowly as a Mulsim"? do you consider righteous Muslim to be a bad thing?

And No there is no specific definition, Jihad is Jihad but it has different levels, when you go to work, that is your jihad, when you try to leave bad habbits like smoking or drugs that is also Jihad, when you educate yourself that is also Jihad.. so my brother.. Army of Allah includes those who seek knowledge, those who earn halal living, those who fight for their country, those who restrict themselves from bad habits.. They are all Mujahideen.. The only requirement to be a mujahid is to be Muslim, then every bad thing you don't do or stop yourself from doing is considered Jihad

So even you (if you are a Muslim) are Mujahid in one way or the other.. and if you die in the line of your duty or accidently, you'll be shaheed..

Fair enough, but see what happens when one uses your definition?

1. There is no difference in the motivation and self-absorbed justification between the PA and the taliban that they are fighting.

2. It effectively excludes large segments of not only the civilian population, but most of the PA leadership as well.

If you are okay with that, who am I to object?

 

[Porus]

Fair enough, but see what happens when one uses your definition?

1. There is no difference in the motivation and self-absorbed justification between the PA and the taliban that they are fighting.

2. It effectively excludes large segments of not only the civilian population, but most of the PA leadership as well.

If you are okay with that, who am I to object?

A very valid point. The old motto was ittehad, yaqeen aur nazm that was coined by none other than Jinnah himself. Pakistanis have to decide whether they want to live in Jinnah's Pakistan or Zia's. This is not merely an army, this is Pakistan's army and defending its border against any aggressor, be it Muslim or non-Muslim, is its first and foremost duty.

 

[AAtish]

Fair enough, but see what happens when one uses your definition?

1. There is no difference in the motivation and self-absorbed justification between the PA and the taliban that they are fighting.

2. It effectively excludes large segments of not only the civilian population, but most of the PA leadership as well.

If you are okay with that, who am I to object?

LOL... well amazingly you missed the part about different levels of Jihad was it intentional or unintentional?

Thus your point is not valid anymore everyone gets fair reward on the basis of his job description.. there is no injustice in Islam

Taliban's concept of Jihad is not Islamic Jihad, it is no where in Qur'an, Ahadees or Sunnah... It is forbidden to harm your ownself (suicide bombers), it is forbidden to hurt innocents (target killers/bomb blasts etc).. It is forbidden to be the first to attack or be the aggressors.. so tell me.. are they following Islam?

 

[VCheng]

LOL... well amazingly you missed the part about different levels of Jihad was it intentional or unintentional?

Thus your point is not valid anymore everyone gets fair reward on the basis of his job description.. there is no injustice in Islam

Taliban's concept of Jihad is not Islamic Jihad, it is no where in Qur'an, Ahadees or Sunnah... It is forbidden to harm your ownself (suicide bombers), it is forbidden to hurt innocents (target killers/bomb blasts etc).. It is forbidden to be the first to attack or be the aggressors.. so tell me.. are they following Islam?

No, I was just trying to figure out what level of Jihad would be required to meet the standards of the PA motto. Can you please help me with that?

 

[Porus]

LOL... well amazingly you missed the part about different levels of Jihad was it intentional or unintentional?

Thus your point is not valid anymore everyone gets fair reward on the basis of his job description.. there is no injustice in Islam

Taliban's concept of Jihad is not Islamic Jihad, it is no where in Qur'an, Ahadees or Sunnah... It is forbidden to harm your ownself (suicide bombers), it is forbidden to hurt innocents (target killers/bomb blasts etc).. It is forbidden to be the first to attack or be the aggressors.. so tell me.. are they following Islam?

And who is going to decide whether their concept of Jihad in quite unislamic. Those self-appointed learned muttaqis?

 

[AAtish]

A very valid point. The old motto was ittehad, yaqeen aur nazm that was coined by none other than Jinnah himself. Pakistanis have to decide whether they want to live in Jinnah's Pakistan or Zia's. This is not merely an army, this is Pakistan's army and defending its border against any aggressor, be it Muslim or non-Muslim, is its first and foremost duty.

True! agreed!

So where does the clash with Iman, Taqwah and Jihad fi sabeelillah came?

 

[VCheng]

Please allow me to indicate that the discussion of the mottos in on-topic as far as I can see, since it is also the motto of all sections of PA, including the ISI.

(I hope posts don't get deleted.)

 

[AAtish]

And who is going to decide whether their concept of Jihad in quite unislamic. Those self-appointed learned muttaqis?

Nope!.. Qur'an, Qawi Ahadees and Sunnah...

Remember last speech of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) and the verse which came..

Al yaoma akmalto lakum deenokum wa atmamto alaikum naimati wa razeeto lakum...

So no one decides other than Muslims, You are a Muslim (if you are) then read Qur'an, study Ahadees, and then compare if what Taliban are doing is according to Islam.. if it is not, then their concept is wrong.. as simple as that..

Thats the beauty of Islam, you are TOLD to seek knowledge, both Islamic as well as Worldly..

It might amaze you that all the recent developments are done on the basis of researches done by Muslim scholars