Pakistan’s ISI from the inside

[VCheng]

Do you need them to do this?? apparently the democracy you so love provides you with "voting" rights.. its your fault that you gave the right to illiterate and backward people.. they stand shoulder to shoulder with a very learned person and vote.. even Islam doesn't gives this right.. in Islam a vote for learned person weighs more than an illiterate person.. so who's fault is it? Islam's or Democracy's?

I'm expecting next post of yours talking about unequal rights for humans in Islam now

Well, you do raise a very interesting point. Can you please provide some references on the concept of unequal voting rights in Islam so support your contention?

 

[AAtish]

I assume you do not want to hear my opinion?

Aw, I feel so rejected!

I do its a discussion isn't it? and discussion is done to correct some wrongs after all both of you are so hell-bent in 'correcting' army and ISI so i guess you won't mind correcting yourselves if proven wrong.. or am i mistaken in assuming that?

 

[VCheng]

I do its a discussion isn't it? and discussion is done to correct some wrongs after all both of you are so hell-bent in 'correcting' army and ISI so i guess you won't mind correcting yourselves if proven wrong.. or am i mistaken in assuming that?

Sure, but please know that my bottom line is the lack of a realistic solution, not that I support a particular solution.

 

[AAtish]

Well, you do raise a very interesting point. Can you please provide some references on the concept of unequal voting rights in Islam so support your contention?

Oh sure.. would you like to read about how khalifas (caliphs as they are known) were chosen? .. if you don't know that.. then i would suggest you to first read the Islamic history and then talk about what Islamisation is .. i do not.. in no shape or form support taliban or their ideology, but i would strongly resist to anyone portraying Islam as wrong

 

[AAtish]

Sure, but please know that my bottom line is the lack of a realistic solution, not that I support a particular solution.

Reality was at one point fantasy in the past ..

so would you mind letting me know the thing you are looking solution for?

 

[VCheng]

Oh sure.. would you like to read about how khalifas (caliphs as they are known) were chosen? .. if you don't know that.. then i would suggest you to first read the Islamic history and then talk about what Islamisation is .. i do not.. in no shape or form support taliban or their ideology, but i would strongly resist to anyone portraying Islam as wrong

I am more aware of Islamic history than you might suspect, but the election of a Caliph is different than universal suffrage.

What I was hoping for from you is some reference to concept of UNEQUAL voting rights in Islam based on the level of literacy as you mentioned.

 

[VCheng]

Vcheng
My problem with your posts is that you pose many questions but never really supply the answers. You write intelligently enough so why not give us an answer to the problem which is your version. We all have problems with the way things are run in Pakistan but what is your answer to the problem?
Araz

Reality was at one point fantasy in the past ..

so would you mind letting me know the thing you are looking solution for?

I am no longer looking for a solution since I have reasons to believe that it does not exist? Solution to what you ask? I think Araz said it best:

"We all have problems with the way things are run in Pakistan but what is your answer to the problem?"

To make it crystal clear, I do NOT see any reason to hope that the way things are run in Pakistan will change anytime soon.

 

[AAtish]

I am more aware of Islamic history than you might suspect, but the election of a Caliph is different than universal suffrage.

What I was hoping for from you is some reference to concept of UNEQUAL voting rights in Islam based on the level of literacy as you mentioned.

Sure, if you are so aware of Islamic history (which i highly doubt, otherwise you wouldn't be asking me this question) then let me 'remind' you.. Khalifa was never elected by majority voting of ALL Muslims.. it use to be selected group of learned people who use to vote for probable candidates.. and the rest of Muslim Ummah just followed those learned group's decision..

By selected i mean, those who were more knowledgeable, more righteous and more pious.. in short, higher in Taqwah level.. the same thing which you both so disagree with

 

[VCheng]

Sure, if you are so aware of Islamic history (which i highly doubt, otherwise you wouldn't be asking me this question) then let me 'remind' you.. Khalifa was never elected by majority voting of ALL Muslims.. it use to be selected group of learned people who use to vote for probable candidates.. and the rest of Muslim Ummah just followed those learned group's decision..

By selected i mean, those who were more knowledgeable, more righteous and more pious.. in short, higher in Taqwah level.. the same thing which you both so disagree with

But once in the select group voting for a particular thing, all votes WITHIN that BANK are EQUAL, are they not? But what you stated previously:

....................in Islam a vote for (by?) learned person weighs more than an illiterate person.

means something quite different.

 

[AAtish]

I am no longer looking for a solution since I have reasons to believe that it does not exist? Solution to what you ask? I think Araz said it best:



To make it crystal clear, I do NOT see any reason to hope that the way things are run in Pakistan will change anytime soon.

So basically you are implying that we should all give up hope? and let the ball roll as it is rolling right now?.. sorry mate, being a Muslim, we cannot and will not let this go.. no matter how much you, or people like you try to put us down..

Someone in this same thread posted a question about how this country is surviving?.. here is your answer, we are not quitters!!!

If you are asking for solution for the current situation.. i have posted a pretty long analysis in my post (maybe on the last page or this).. please go through it..

 

[AAtish]

But once in the select group voting for a particular thing, all votes WITHIN that BANK are EQUAL, are they not? But what you stated previously:



means something quite different.

Within that bank = group of "learned" people.. not illiterates

Bold part: Please elaborate your question

 

[VCheng]

So basically you are implying that we should all give up hope? and let the ball roll as it is rolling right now?.. sorry mate, being a Muslim, we cannot and will not let this go.. no matter how much you, or people like you try to put us down..

Someone in this same thread posted a question about how this country is surviving?.. here is your answer, we are not quitters!!!

If you are asking for solution for the current situation.. i have posted a pretty long analysis in my post (maybe on the last page or this).. please go through it..

All I am saying is that I personally do not see any reason to believe that a solution exists.

People higher in learning and taqwah may be wiser in seeing that I am wrong, after all!

(I did go through your previous post.)

 

[AAtish]

All I am saying is that I personally do not see any reason to believe that a solution exists.

People higher in learning and taqwah may be wiser in seeing that I am wrong, after all!

(I did go through your previous post.)

Sarcasm eh? it is an escape from answering a logical query...

Anyways, this is what i said.. and i re-quote:

Khalifa was never elected by majority voting of ALL Muslims.. it use to be selected group of learned people who use to vote for probable candidates.. and the rest of Muslim Ummah just followed those learned group's decision..

Please ask your question again.. what did you not understand in this line.. or where was it not clear

 

[AAtish]

Can we please stay on topic?

No reply brother? if you intend to seek a solution, you need to seek knowledge...

An old saying is coming to my mind.. no knowledge is dangerous.. little knowledge is destructive..

On the topic.. my question still stands.. which portion of the Army's motto you want to change.. Iman? Jihad? or Taqwah?

 

[VCheng]

No reply brother? if you intend to seek a solution, you need to seek knowledge...

An old saying is coming to my mind.. no knowledge is dangerous.. little knowledge is destructive..

On the topic.. my question still stands.. which portion of the Army's motto you want to change.. Iman? Jihad? or Taqwah?

How about a motto that is based on this concept:

Chapter 2 of PART XII of Pakistani Constitution defines the purpose of the Army as: "Under the directions of the Federal Government, the Pakistan Army will defend Pakistan against external aggression or threat of war."