Pakistan’s ISI from the inside

[VCheng]

....................... the rethink is an absolute existential imperative. And now you will realize the significance of our statement that the army is intellectually and ethically, bankrupt.
....................

How unpatriotic of you to say that sitting in London where you have a comfortable life and 24/7 electricity!

Seriously though, all your analysis of the motto is correct but only up to a point. The ISI/PA leadership knows and uses this ideology cynically to serve their own interest. They know its falsehoods as good as you are describing them, but coninue to find it so useful that they cannot give it up.

 

[muse]

Perhaps it does take advantage cynically - but this is a self serving argument on one hand and on the other hand it does not take into account that the proxies of the state, the lashkars, the Jaish, the Jund, and Sepah, etc, take the army at it's word -- and internationally, look at the position of Tajik and Uzbek even Kazakh governments was, before the PPP types helped to change it

 

[VCheng]

Perhaps it does take advantage cynically - but this is a self serving argument on one hand and on the other hand it does not take into account that the proxies of the state, the lashkars, the Jaish, the Jund, and Sepah, etc, take the army at it's word -- and internationally, look at the position of Tajik and Uzbek even Kazakh governments was, before the PPP types helped to change it

Of course, all the mullah/taliban brigades take all this bilgewater seriously, but the leadership knows that all it needs to do is ensure its masters in the West that they themselves do not. A toast or two over a nice chablis or shiraz and deals can be sealed nicely.

 

[muse]

causing problems inside India & exerting influence in Afghanistan seemed to be in Pakistan's interests.

Billu, see above - that is to say my post to VCheng -- yes, perhaps Pakistan army were cynical -- but brother man, it's in the very motto of the army - lets never allow ourselves to fall victim to how we wish things were -- Every Pakistan army soldiers is indoctrinated with that, lets never lose sight of that.

 

[muse]

See once again, we come back to the source - reform ISI, can't ! Why not? ISI is army, so the reform must begin with Army


If even after a period of 10 years, the motto, the ethic the army promotes, is Islamist, what does that say about the army?

 

[VCheng]

See once again, we come back to the source - reform ISI, can't ! Why not? ISI is army, so the reform must begin with Army
...........................

There you go again Muse; the cool breeze of the airconditioner running on freely available electricity must be freezing your brain cells!

"There is no reform needed since the Army is doing such a tremendous job of protecting the ideological and geographical frontiers of this great god given Allah blessed nuclear armed Islamic country!"

After all, only the traitors who have emigrated can argue with a philosophy like that!

 

[53fd]

Billu, see above - that is to say my post to VCheng -- yes, perhaps Pakistan army were cynical -- but brother man, it's in the very motto of the army - lets never allow ourselves to fall victim to how we wish things were -- Every Pakistan army soldiers is indoctrinated with that, lets never lose sight of that.

This is a very complicated problem. But if Pakistani soldiers were indoctrinated the way you claim they've been, then they wouldn't be fighting the terrorists in FATA, 'as they would have been one of them'.

 

[VCheng]

This is a very complicated problem. But if every Pakistani soldier was indoctrinated the way you claim they've been, then they wouldn't be fighting the terrorists in FATA.

This illogical dichotomy has the potential to rip the army apart.

 

[53fd]

See once again, we come back to the source - reform ISI, can't ! Why not? ISI is army, so the reform must begin with Army

The Army soldiers that go against the Pakistani establishment are being punished, case in point being the Brigadier with Hizb-ul-Tahrir links, as well as many other cases. The bad seeds are being taken out & being punished accordingly. The Pakistani tribal people have formed their Lashkars & are fighting alongside the Pakistan Army to root out the terrorists in FATA. The morale of the Pakistani Army in fighting these terrorists has not fallen down, & are doing a great job at eliminating these terrorists. Isn't that good enough for you?

 

[53fd]

This illogical dichotomy has the potential to rip the army apart.

Let's forget about potential & conjecture, & talk facts. It hasn't ripped the Army apart, which shows a disconnect of logical reasoning here. The morale of the Pakistan Forces against the terrorists in FATA has not fallen down, & are doing a great job of eliminating terrorists in Mohmand & Kurram.

 

[VCheng]

It hasn't ripped the Army apart, which shows a disconnect of logical reasoning here. The morale of the Pakistan Forces against the terrorists in FATA has not fallen down, & are doing a great job of eliminating terrorists in Mohmand & Kurram.

Please note that I indicated that it has the potential to do so. The reason it has not done so up till now speaks highly of the strong professional discipline of the Pakistan Army. See, I can praise true qualities where I see them without any hatred or indeed even any hesitation or problems!

Edit: You edited your original post. I am not making any conjectures, but pointing out a very real potential danger.

 

[muse]

It may not have ripped the army apart but lok at the inside job with regard to the Mehran - and of course the revelation that the armed forces were negotiating with the radicals who opposed getting rid of soldiers too "islamic" for their own good - and then look at all the vents in which convoys were ambushed or the killing of the American advisors -- Please don't be stuck to a idea too closely, especially when cynical leadership is promoting those ideas

 

[53fd]

Please note that I indicated that it has the potential to do so. The reason it has not done so up till now speaks highly of the strong professional discipline of the Pakistan Army. See, I can praise true qualities where I see them without any hatred or indeed even any hesitation or problems!

Call it whatever you want, your usage of the word potential indicates conjecture.

 

[VCheng]

Call it whatever you want, your usage of the word potential indicates conjecture.

A conjecture is a proposition that is unproven but is thought to be true and has not been disproven, whereas potential means existing in possibility or capable of development into actuality.

Either way I am correct in saying what I said before.

 

[53fd]

A conjecture is a proposition that is unproven but is thought to be true and has not been disproven, whereas potential means existing in possibility or capable of development into actuality.

Either way I am correct in saying what I said before.

Thank you for explaining what conjecture means, I had no idea what it meant, & I don't know how to use google either .

Again, as you so aptly put, conjecture relates to possibilities or something capable of developing into reality; it isn't reality or fact at the present moment. Keep talking about possibilities, you're good at it, & I'll talk about the possibilities about how the world will end on December 31, 2011.