Pakistan’s ISI from the inside

[VCheng]

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The policy on the drones is clear. Drones are a double edged sword. Intelligence must be shared between the ISI & CIA, to minimize collateral damage & maximize terrorist elimination. However, if the intelligence is not shared, there is a higher chance that the collateral damage will be high (like the tribals & innocent people getting killed previously), & the terrorist networks remaining in tact. This is not acceptable to Pakistan. Now that Pakistan & the US are collaborating, the collateral damage is minimized, the terrorist networks are getting strained, & the tribals & the Pakistan Army are joining hands to eliminate the threat from terrorists. This is what Pakistan wants.

My, my, my, how noble! Instead of being called complicit in the drone attacks, the ISI should be commended for working to protect civilians by reducing collateral damage.

Damn, you are GOOD!

 

[muse]

What do you mean that "Zia's army was deliberately infused with the Islamist ethic"?

I mean special indoctrination classes for the rank and file.

Anyway - why don't you tell us what the motto of the Pakistan army is?

 

[53fd]

Pakistan army's relationship with Al-Qaida

So why is Al-Qaida against the Pakistan army?? --- But this was not always the case - when the Pakistan army decided to accept US money, Al-Qaida turned against it

The US supplied money, ammunition to the same people they are fighting today. Pakistan was caught in the same mess, but the important thing is that they are an enemy to the nation, & are being dealt like that. The same thing with the US & Al-Qaeda relationship.

The re-orientation of the army into a national army is the only way to kill the monster of Islamization/radicalizaation in society - it's a signal that the state recognizes this ideology as a threat.

The re-orientation of the army is in process, & as long as the top leadership are working towards it, we can be pretty sure that it will go through. But it'll take some time of course.

 

[Bratva]

Stick to the topic boys and girls. I shouldn't have to delete posts by senior members.

A little offtopic Sire. But you were way off topic here in your own post. as there is no girl here discussing matters

 

[53fd]

My, my, my, how noble! Instead of being called complicit in the drone attacks, the ISI should be commended for working to protect civilians by reducing collateral damage.

Damn, you are GOOD!

The ISI should be commended on intelligence sharing with the US, which is why the terrorist networks in the AfPak region are getting strained right now. Drone attacks are a double edged sword: when they kill terrorists, it is a good thing. When they kill innocent civilians & tribal leaders, it's a bad thing.

 

[53fd]

Anyway - why don't you tell us what the motto of the Pakistan army is?

The motto of the Pakistan Army is to protect the nation of Pakistan from all external threats.

 

[Bratva]

The de facto motto is "We ARE the State, and nobody can do a damn thing about it!"

Then What the Damn Civilian Government can do besides confronting judiciary, busy in corruption, taking loans from IMF, without restructuring it's tax base? What is the guarantee, ARMY would not become another PIA or Still Mill if it is placed under the Civilian Government?

First bring a competent government than talk about all these Putting Army Under civilian Heads. An Alterntive Solution. I'm all for it. ARMY should be Answerable to JUDICIARY.

 

[muse]

http://www.pakistanarmy.gov.pk/AWPReview/TextContent.aspx?pId=17&rnd=108

Iman, Taqwa, Jihad fisabillah

Some even say that Iman has been replaced by Qakeen

Anyway, this is what it says about IMAN:

To have faith and trust in Allah and consider oneself:-

A follower of none but Allah.
And a follower of none but his messenger.

The concept of “no deity except Allah” is always alive in the Muslim’s heart. A Muslim recognizes that Allah alone is the Creator; their He alone is the Provider and Sustainer that He is the true Reality, the source of all things of all benefits and harms. This requires that He alone be worshiped and obeyed. “No deity except Allah” also includes the question of authority as the right to govern belongs to the One Who created him.

Belief in Allah’s messenger means accepting Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as the last messenger sent by Him. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is the spokesman for God by His authority. The duty of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was not only to deliver the message which Allah revealed but also to explain it and put it into practice as an example to be followed by mankind.

Now, what if you are not a Muslim, but are a Pakistani? Now if authority to govern belongs to Allah, then of course the Al-Qaida and TTP are right, why are we fighting them, after all, the government of Pakistan is man made government and more importantly it's laws are man made and not divine, Shariah law????

And below is a piece from the Jihad stuff:

The real objective of Islam is to shift the lordship of man over man to the lordship of Allah on the earth and to stake one's life and everything else to achieve this sacred purpose. The Arabic word “Jihad” means to struggle “or” to strive. In as much as “Jihad” is a struggle, it is a struggle against all that is perceived as evil in the cause of that which is perceived good, a cosmic and epic struggle spanning time and all dimensions of human thought and action, and transcending the physical universe. The Islamic Law regulates declaration of Jihad as also the limitations are imposed on its conduct. In Chapter II verse 190 of The Holy Quran the reference to the duty of the Muslims to “fight in the cause of God those who fight you and be not aggressors. God loveth not those who are aggressors”.

Once again, note the Islamist emphasis, If indeed Allah has lordship over the Earth, what does Allah need an Army for?? And if Allah in His role as Overlord, has the right to govern --- then the Pakistan government is by definition illegitimate, it is a government of man and worse still, a governm,ent not of religious scholars -- So are not the Talib and Al-Qaida in fact right to fight the Pakistan army??

And if Islamic law regulates Jihad, then this army can only be answerable to Islamic law - RIGHT?????

See, the idiot army has managed to get itself into another pickle - Zia is dead and gone, But the Pakistan army is as islamist as it was when Zia was alive -- and of course ISI is a agency of the army

Nothing but a complete re-orientation will suffice - you know it, I know it, we all know it - but unless some can work out the contradictions, this army isn't going anywhere.

 

[muse]

Alright, so that was a bit of body slam - and of course it's unimpeachable -- but now you understand why to reform the ISI, you must first reform the Army.

In fact to defeat Al-Qaida and Taliban, the rethink is an absolute existential imperative. And now you will realize the significance of our statement that the army is intellectually and ethically, bankrupt.

This motto did not just create itself, it is a product of a worldview, an ideology - one wonders about an army more concerned about an ideology that is at the service of transferring the lordship of man over to God, than it is about being good at killing the enemies of Pakistan as directed by the government of Pakistan, a government of men, a government brought into existence by the laws of men.

 

[53fd]

Now, what if you are not a Muslim, but are a Pakistani?

Are you implying there are no non-Muslims in the Pakistan Armed Forces?

Now if authority to govern belongs to Allah, then of course the Al-Qaida and TTP are right, why are we fighting them, after all, the government of Pakistan is man made government and more importantly it's laws are man made and not divine, Shariah law????

I don't understand how all this ties to your implication that the Pakistan Army as an institution sympathizes with Al-Qaeda & TTP terrorists? The Pakistan Army in the 90s collaborated with extreme elements to exert influence in the region, & now is hell-bent on destroying them. It's not that hard to understand. There are a few extremist elements in the Army right now, & the Army is being cleansed from them, it's in the process, albeit a slow one.

Talk about all the Jihadi stuff you want, it is clear for anyone who isn't blind that the neither the Pakistan Army, nor the Pakistan civilian establishment governed by Shariah. The Pakistan Army comprises of majority Muslim soldiers, who believe in Allah, who believe terrorists are a threat to Pakistan & a disgrace to their faith, & lay down their lives protecting their country. Just believing or having faith in Allah does not make one an extremist or a terrorist sympathizer. If this is what you claim the motto of the Pakistan Army is (Jihadi stuff, sympathizing with the TTP/Al-Qaeda), it wouldn't be fighting the international terrorists, or Afghan terrorists, or Pakistani terrorists. It wouldn't be fighting Muslims period. You are being much too simplistic in your assessment here.

 

[muse]

You are making the strongest arguments for why Al-Qaida and TTP are at war with Pakistan where as they were not before.

No getting away from it - Pakistan army is more than a vehicle of Islamization/radicalization, it is a co-conspirator, a co-developer, if you will, along with the Jamaatis, of the islamist project in Pakistan and if Pakistan is to emerge as a normal country (Deen in it's place and Duniya in it's own place) then, the Pakistan army must be reconstructed -- it cannot be a jihadist army and at the same time tell the world that it is at war with jihadis -- Ask yourself why you are having a problem understanding that.

 

[53fd]

You are making the strongest arguments for why Al-Qaida and TTP are at war with Pakistan where as they were not before.

Al-Qaeda & the TTP would have been at war with Pakistan later if not sooner (on 9/11), when they would try to enforce Shariah onto Pakistan. The fact that the Pakistani establishment is fighting them right now is a good thing, not a bad one. Pakistan used extremist elements in the region to exert its influence in the region in the 90s, & when it's a threat to them today, is tackling with them accordingly to eliminate them. Other countries do it as well, it's not an unusual thing. It's not that hard to understand. If the Pakistani Army was a Jihadi Army today, would it not support (overtly or covertly) the Uighur Muslims in Xinjiang against China? Wouldn't it be helping the Chechen Muslims get liberation? Wouldn't it be helping the IMU establish Shariah in Uzbekistan? Why did the Pakistan Army act against Palestine & the Palestinians in the 70s if it was a Jihadi Army? Why didn't it help the Kosovo Albanian Muslims? Your labeling of the Pakistani Army as a Jihadi Army is completely baseless & ridiculous.

 

[53fd]

You are making the strongest arguments for why Al-Qaida and TTP are at war with Pakistan where as they were not before.

No getting away from it - Pakistan army is more than a vehicle of Islamization/radicalization, it is a co-conspirator, a co-developer, if you will, along with the Jamaatis, of the islamist project in Pakistan and if Pakistan is to emerge as a normal country (Deen in it's place and Duniya in it's own place) then, the Pakistan army must be reconstructed -- it cannot be a jihadist army and at the same time tell the world that it is at war with jihadis -- Ask yourself why you are having a problem understanding that.

The Pakistan Army & the ISI added 'religious extremist' elements in Kashmir in the 90s to apply more pressure on India. The Taliban even today is more of a Pashtun nationalist movement than an ideological one. The Taliban is highly factionalized, it has deep ethnic & tribal roots. I don't know where this notion of the Pakistan Army being an international jihadist army came from.

 

[muse]

I don't know where this notion of the Pakistan Army being an international jihadist army came from.

You are reacting without first thinking - Muse friend, not foe, Muse good, Muse bring sense Ug!

Billu, again, check out the Motto -- Jihad Fisabillah ----- COnsider, is Jihad other than "international" in it's scope?? Again, I refer you to the motto fropm the Pakistan Army page

The real objective of Islam is to shift the lordship of man over man to the lordship of Allah on the earth and to stake one's life and everything else to achieve this sacred purpose. The Arabic word “Jihad” means to struggle “or” to strive. In as much as “Jihad” is a struggle, it is a struggle against all that is perceived as evil in the cause of that which is perceived good, a cosmic and epic struggle spanning time and all dimensions of human thought and action, and transcending the physical universe. The Islamic Law regulates declaration of Jihad as also the limitations are imposed on its conduct. In Chapter II verse 190 of The Holy Quran the reference to the duty of the Muslims to “fight in the cause of God those who fight you and be not aggressors. God loveth not those who are aggressors”.

What you are failing to see, is that it is an ill conceived project, that is to say, it's not well thought out - it's a wannabe - otherwise it would not have been so easy to tear apart -- See, it only has meaning in a Islamist milieu, otherwise, it's just KAKA -- what the heck kind of army is about

“Jihad” is a struggle, it is a struggle against all that is perceived as evil in the cause of that which is perceived good, a cosmic and epic struggle spanning time and all dimensions of human thought and action, and transcending the physical universe

Is Evil everywhere? Does that mean evil is international?? -- notice not just in action, but THOUGHT -- do you now understand why Talib are right about what you can and must wear, what You can and must not listen to, what you can and must not see???

Please just take a breath and think - I'm not writing this to hurt you, I am writing this to free you, so that conscience can be your guide.

 

[53fd]

You are reacting without first thinking - Muse friend, not foe, Muse good, Muse bring sense Ug!

Billu, again, check out the Motto -- Jihad Fisabillah ----- COnsider, is Jihad other than "international" in it's scope?? Again, I refer you to the motto fropm the Pakistan Army page

Muse bhai, I respect your opinion, I value your thoughts & your viewpoints, I really do. I'm not angry, I'm very calm & pensive right now. We need to clarify one thing: while there are Jihadi elements inside the Pakistan Army & the ISI, the only reason why extremists were supported by the Pakistan Army/ISI against India & Afghanistan was not because the ISI/Pakistan Army are/see themselves as a Global Jihadi organization or a 'savior/bastion of Islam', but because causing problems inside India & exerting influence in Afghanistan seemed to be in Pakistan's interests. Afghanistan & Kashmir-India are directly related to Pakistan, which is why the ISI/Pakistan Army 'paid attention' to them through the influx of extremist Islamic elements in the 90s, not because they see themselves as a Global Jihadi unit. It is imperative we make this distinction. The fact that Pakistan has not shown an interest in the horrid state of Muslims around the rest of the world shows it has no concern for them. Doesn't matter what the motto says, it's the action that counts, not words.They used these extremist Islamist elements in Kashmir & Afghanistan when it served their purposes/interests, & now when it isn't, is fighting them. The fighters armed, funded by the US, & trained by Pakistan against the Soviets; turned against Pakistan & the US after 9/11 because they felt used by these two countries. Therefore, this is the reason why Al-Qaeda & international terrorists don't see the Pakistan Army/Pakistani Establishment as a 'Islamic' state ruled by Shariah, & want to establish their version of Shariah over Pakistan.