What's new

Pakistan’s ISI from the inside

I think I have made my point, and you just reinforced it again. Thank you! :)

The ISI does not bother me at all actually. Why should it?

Okay, I will agree to your contention that the ISI is doing what it feels is right. Time will prove me right soon enough. Over and Out Sir!
Vcheng
My problem with your posts is that you pose many questions but never really supply the answers. You write intelligently enough so why not give us an answer to the problem which is your version. We all have problems with the way things are run in Pakistan but what is your answer to the problem?
Araz
 
.
Vcheng
My problem with your posts is that you pose many questions but never really supply the answers. You write intelligently enough so why not give us an answer to the problem which is your version. We all have problems with the way things are run in Pakistan but what is your answer to the problem?
Araz

My personal answer to the problem was emigration!

As much as I am a "master of conjecture" I honestly cannot prove the existence of a realistically applicable solution as of yet. I am working on it though. My posts, irritating as they may be to some here, aid definition of the problem. After all defining a problem is half the solution, just as admitting ignorance is the first step to the knowledge.

The real problem is a Hydra, of which the ISI is only one head.
 
.
^^ The easiest thing one can do when he has nothing guud to add is to belittle himself and show a laid back attitude.
 
.
Vcheng
My problem with your posts is that you pose many questions but never really supply the answers. You write intelligently enough so why not give us an answer to the problem which is your version. We all have problems with the way things are run in Pakistan but what is your answer to the problem?
Araz

Right on money! He asks very pertinent, thought provoking questions on the serious problems & challenges faced by Pakistan. But the 'solutions' he provides to these problems are limited to statements such as "beggars can't be choosers", & "Pakistan should be more of a client state to the US", (& if it does not want to be) "break all ties with the US" (which isn't a feasible option at all either). Relationships should be based on mutual understanding & on a equal footing, otherwise it is no longer a 'relationship'.
 
.
I see that my person continues to be favoured, and not the topic of the thread.

You may not believe this, but IF I knew of a solution, I would NOT have emigrated. Is that too hard to understand?
 
.
Worship at the altar of the army and a nationalism based on "not India" - and your persons will be less of an issue
 
.
Worship at the altar of the army and a nationalism based on "not India" - and your persons will be less of an issue

I worship at only ONE altar of Allah, and I will never be blinded by nationalism, patriotism being the well-known last refuge of scoundrels!

Edit: Comments removed voluntarily.
 
.
Worship at the altar of the army and a nationalism based on "not India" - and your persons will be less of an issue

'Worshiping the altar of the Army' does not mean being anti-India. The task of the Army is to protect the nation from external threats coming from a wide range of sources (not just India), & that does not mean being anti-India. For example: Afghanistan is in my opinion, a much greater to Pakistan than India is or ever has been. The Army has been foolhardy at times in the past when it has come to India (& other times, justified), & I believe the Army seems to have realized this, & recognizes the fact that there are 'external forces' out there at work that want India & Pakistan to be at constant loggerheads with each other. I hope Pakistan & India can resolve their issues amicably & have cordial relations, & work towards the better the betterment of the region & have greater co-operation.
 
.
I agree with all you have written and I would ask that you also present us with instances in which the army has actually done it's duty to protect Pakistan - please point to a single instance of victory by this so called "army".

And I do take your point about Afghanistan - and would point out the role of the army in the creation of the menace it now claims it is fighting to rid Pakistan of.

See, Bilal, in earlier posts we made the point that the author suggested excellent points for reform but that these would not be possible, because :

1. Contrary to your assertion, the ISI is not accountable to any civilian government but is an Army institution - you will no doubt recall the eventualities related to Zardari placing the ISI under the ministry of the interior?

2. Because it (ISI) is an army institution - It is the army must be re-oriented (towards being a national PAKISTANI Army as opposed to just "ARMY") the orientation of the army itself is a problem. The perception (reality?) is that the army is interested in her own interests, not those of Pakistan and the Pakistani nation - here I would point to the relationships between the Army and those who generate extremist ideas in society.
 
.
I agree with all you have written and I would ask that you also present us with instances in which the army has actually done it's duty to protect Pakistan - please point to a single instance of victory by this so called "army".

I can talk about this in great detail, unfortunately, that would be a very long discussion. We would have to go over each & every event that has transpired in Pakistan & South Asia since 1947. I really don't want to go into that, but there were times when the Army was in the wrong, at other times, there was justification for their actions.

And I do take your point about Afghanistan - and would point out the role of the army in the creation of the menace it now claims it is fighting to rid Pakistan of.

Pakistan nurtured the monster created by the US in 1979 by Carter & Brzezinski, & yes, it continues to bear the brunt of that decision, as well as the whole region. However, nations do 'favor' extreme elements if they are serving some 'sort of interest': for example: the US gave money, supplied weapons to the same people they are fighting today in Afghanistan; India trained LTTE terrorists against Sri Lanka, but in 1991, the same LTTE suicide bomber who got training in India blew up Rajiv Gandhi; & Pakistan is in the process of slaying the monster it helped nurture in the 80s. What cannot be doubted is the resolve of the Pakistan Army & the tribal people who have joined forces, & are eliminating this monster in Kurram & Mohmand. The Pakistan Army & the people have showed extreme bravery, & are busy eliminating the threat nurtured by Pakistan in the 80s.

See, Bilal, in earlier posts we made the point that the author suggested excellent points for reform but that these would not be possible, because :

1. Contrary to your assertion, the ISI is not accountable to any civilian government but is an Army institution - you will no doubt recall the eventualities related to Zardari placing the ISI under the ministry of the interior?

First of all, if the ISI is not accountable to the Supreme Court or the Law of Pakistan, does not make the ISI at fault, but the civilian legal institutions/bodies. If the civilian government cannot do its job & govern the country, & the Army does the wrong thing by overthrowing that civilian government (& does a better job), the root cause of the problem is the inept government. It is wrong for the Army to overthrow democratic civilian rule, that is not their job: their job is to be on the battlefield; but the root cause of the problem is the inept civilian institutions.

2. Because it (ISI) is an army institution - It is the army must be re-oriented (towards being a national PAKISTANI Army as opposed to just "ARMY") the orientation of the army itself is a problem. The perception (reality?) is that the army is interested in her own interests, not those of Pakistan and the Pakistani nation - here I would point to the relationships between the Army and those who generate extremist ideas in society.

There are 3 intelligence gathering bodies in Pakistan: the MI, the ISI & the IB. The MI is under the jurisdiction of the Army. The ISI is a foreign intelligence gathering agency under the jurisdiction of the civilian government, not the Army. The IB is a domestic intelligence gathering agency under the jurisdiction of the civilian government as well.

The Pakistan Army & intelligence recognize the facts on the ground, & work for Pakistan's safety. The fact is that very little is known about the ISI, it is an extremely efficient, a very powerful & discreet agency; & most people (Islamists or secular people) only pass their opinions about the ISI, & know very little about it.
 
.
Agno
Why would the US do anything to you when you yourself dont want to better your lot.The US finds it appropriate to issue a few visas, a few educational trips to someones son or daughter, or simply blackmail them for their stash in some far away land. Till such time that we have people like that the lot of our country will not improve.
We have seen a trend in our country of adhocism. In sixty odd yrs what institution has been built , or what lot of the people has been improved by a policy f the Government. I was on this board having arguments with people who used to sing praises of Musharraf in his prime, and I said at that time that the country,s problem remains ad hocsm and till such time that you correct hte basic underlying problems, all this short term gains will be negated in a fairly short time. At that time I was shot down in flames and told the country is doing brilliantly.
The institution that we consider to be a saviour of the nation has itself become a source of the problem. Dont ask me but go and ask MuradK what happened when he went back to his beloved air force after having been relieved of the charge after the M2K fiasco, what did his seniors tell him?
As to the US policy, they have had plans drawn up for this as far back as 2 or 3 decades. Did you think they learnt nothing from the Zaki Yamani episode? Why would they alter their plans which suit their purpose in a far away region and without compromizing their safety and at the expense of a few morsels thrown to some hungry dogs ,when it can virtually implant all the people it needs to achieve its aims and objectives. Even if you had some one with balls to stand up to it, all it would mean would be a few more dollars given be grudgingly but still trying to achieve the aims that they have.
We need institutions and policies which are consistent with our national interests and not the interests of either US or China. These must be borne with in a frame work of mutual respect and without compromising our national integrity. If not now , believe me a couple of decades down the line we will be having the same conversation about some other country but the scenario will not change.
I may already have said too much.
Araz

Araz,

You are, IMO, mixing two issues. I am not contesting the need for reforms and changes within Pakistan and Pakistani institutions - but the need for reforms and changes internally does not negate the fact that there are significant national security concerns perceived by the security establishment that cause a degree of continuity in the the policies of the security establishment, regardless of who is in charge and what their politico-religious ideology may be.

It is those national security concerns/interests that need to be addressed to bring about a change - it is not some bogeyman of 'a privileged few holding the country hostage'.

You could argue that 'internal reform and change can play a substantial role in addressing some of those concerns', and I would agree, but then the kind of reform we are talking about does not begin nor end with the military and ISI. As VCheng pointed out, the problem is a 'hydra', and 'reforms in the military and ISI' are just one part of a larger reforms process that needs to be undertaken.

A significant aspect of this reform is 'civilian ownership' of policies and institutions, but that won't simply occur because commentators demand 'the Army stay out of politics'. It will occur when the civilian leadership and the elected government can do what the AKP in Turkey has done, and mobilize public support in its favor and leave little room for the military to act.

But, again, outside of 'internal reform' there continues to exist a significant external threat to Pakistan, and that cannot be wished away. Given that 'internal reform' will take time, even if it were to start immediately, those 'external threats' need to be addressed, and the existence of those threats will therefore continue to result in continuity of policy, to some degree, from the security establishment, regardless of who is in charge and how many 'purges' take place.
 
.
I agree with all you have written and I would ask that you also present us with instances in which the army has actually done it's duty to protect Pakistan - please point to a single instance of victory by this so called "army".

And I do take your point about Afghanistan - and would point out the role of the army in the creation of the menace it now claims it is fighting to rid Pakistan of.

See, Bilal, in earlier posts we made the point that the author suggested excellent points for reform but that these would not be possible, because :

1. Contrary to your assertion, the ISI is not accountable to any civilian government but is an Army institution - you will no doubt recall the eventualities related to Zardari placing the ISI under the ministry of the interior?

2. Because it (ISI) is an army institution - It is the army must be re-oriented (towards being a national PAKISTANI Army as opposed to just "ARMY") the orientation of the army itself is a problem. The perception (reality?) is that the army is interested in her own interests, not those of Pakistan and the Pakistani nation - here I would point to the relationships between the Army and those who generate extremist ideas in society.

As I mentioned to you before, it is not a coincidence that the terrorist networks in the AfPak region are getting strained, now that Pakistan & the US are collaborating a lot better; Pakistan conducting full scale operations in Kurram & Mohmand, the US conducting drone strikes in North Waziristan & South Waziristan. The US & Pakistan are not 'overriding' each other (or each other's authority), but are actually collaborating well; & the effects can be seen a lot more. When the US in previous times decided not to consult the Pakistan intelligence, their drone strikes resulted in a lot of tribals & innocent people getting killed. That has changed now: the collateral damage from the drone strikes has been minimized, the terrorist networks in the AfPak region are much more strained with operations from both Pakistan & the US, in collaboration with one another. I would call this a success.
 
.
Worship at the altar of the army and a nationalism based on "not India" - and your persons will be less of an issue

I'll re-post two articles from the 'Debating Liberal Fascism' thread to address your flawed point here:

With friends like these

By Feisal Naqvi

Published: July 25, 2011

Till recently, I had nothing but respect for Mr Shashi Tharoor. He is not only an accomplished writer and a former under-secretary-general of the UN, but a popularly elected member of India’s parliament. All these are substantial achievements. At the same time, Mr Tharoor’s recent column “Delusional liberals” (Deccan Chronicles, July 21) left me greatly disappointed.

Since Mr Tharoor’s column was but the latest in a series of cross-boundary literary salvos, some background is necessary. This latest border incident began with an examination by Aatish Taseer of Pakistan’s so-called ‘obsession’ with India and, more specifically, the fact that even ‘liberals’ like his late father took much pleasure in any travails which happened to come India’s way. In terms of content, what Taseer Jr had to say was not entirely incorrect, though grossly overstated. However, the references to his father were entirely gratuitous as seen by some Pakistanis, which combined with the tenuous nature of his conclusions, inspired one Ejaz Haider to pen a response (titled “Aatish’s personal fire” and published on these pages on July 19)

Ejaz’s reply to Aatish Taseer made, in essence, two points. The first was that the article was massively simplistic. The second was that our apparent obsession with India was partly justified given the Pakistan-specific nature of India’s military preparations.

Tharoor sahib’s response to Ejaz, in turn, also had two things to say. The first was that Ejaz had missed the apparently evident point that India is a peace-loving nation whose military capabilities are all non-violent and defensive in nature. The second was that, like other Pakistani liberals, Ejaz’s commitment to critical thinking was liable to be overwhelmed by atavistic nationalistic impulses. Or, in the slightly more elegant phraseology of Mr Tharoor, “Indians need to put aside their illusions that there are liberal partners for us on the other side of the border who echo our diagnosis of their plight and share our desire to defenestrate their military. Nor should we be surprised: A Pakistani liberal is, after all, a Pakistani before he is a liberal.”

In the interests of honesty, let me freely concede not only that I found Mr Tharoor’s response to be infuriating but that I said all sorts of rude things about him on Twitter which I probably shouldn’t have said. On the other hand, I’m not sure I want to apologise. For a professional diplomat, Mr Tharoor’s remarks were cretinous in the extreme. In fact, they were probably cretinous by any measure.

Let us begin with the wide-eyed protestations of geostrategic innocence, the casual assertion that India has no hegemonic ambitions, regional or otherwise. Any diplomat who actually believed that would normally be classified as hopelessly naïve. Since Mr Tharoor is no naïf, the conclusion is that he is being economical with the truth. India does see itself as a major power, both economically and militarily; just ask the Sri Lankans or the Nepalese. Or better still, ask the Mandarins from India’s ministry of external affairs arguing that India deserves to be a permanent member of the UN Security Council.

Still, that is not the real problem with Mr Tharoor’s column. As a good Indian diplomat, it is his job to trot out the party line. He knows he’s fibbing. We know he’s fibbing. He knows we know. And so life goes on.

Instead, the real problem with Mr Tharoor’s column is how he transitions from the contention that Pakistan has an unhealthy obsession with India to the conclusion that real Pakistani liberals should share India’s desire to “defenestrate” the Pakistan military. This is dangerous ground.

I have no problem with the contention that Pakistan’s population — especially its establishment — has an unhappy obsession with India. At the same time, the opposite of India-obsessed is not India-submissive. Yes, we Pakistanis should not define ourselves in negative terms, i.e. purely by comparison to India. However, this does not lead to the conclusion that we should not seek to define ourselves at all (as Mr Tharoor apparently believes). Instead, it leads to the conclusion that we Pakistanis need to define ourselves in positive terms.

Mr Tharoor implies that there can be no positive rationale for Pakistan. Given the limitations of this column, all I can say to him is this: I am both Pakistani and liberal. I don’t hate India. Like me, most of Pakistan has no memory of a united subcontinent. In fact, like me, most of Pakistan even has no memory of East Pakistan. This country is all we know, Mr Tharoor, and we intend to keep it. Can we please move on now?

I also have no desire to destroy Pakistan’s military. Pakistan lacks stable institutions and while the armed forces are certainly a major part of our problems, ‘defenestrating’ them is not part of the solution (For a more nuanced version of this argument see Anatol Lieven’s recent book, Pakistan: A Hard Country, Penguin, 2011). Pakistan needs a military which knows its legitimate boundaries and which does not overwhelm our limited resources. But given the neighbourhood we live in, and given our current condition, no reasonable person thinks it advisable to dismantle our armed forces.

There is one final problem with Mr Tharoor’s column. As noted above, his fundamental assumption is that there is no core Pakistani identity besides rejection of India and that Pakistani liberals should join hands with similarly enlightened Indians in seeking the destruction of Pakistan’s military. Ironically, the only other group which shares this simplistic world view is the very Pakistani establishment that Mr Tharoor deprecates. It, too, believes that Pakistani liberals seek the destruction of Pakistan as an independent state. It, too, believes that Pakistani liberals secretly yearn to reunite Pakistan with Maha Bharat.

Let me summarise then. Mr Tharoor’s column is gratuitously smug about India’s supposed lack of strategic ambitions. Mr Tharoor further believes that Pakistan has no legitimate identity besides a rejection of India and that Pakistani liberals — if truly liberal — would acknowledge this fact. He thereby not only confirms all of the Pakistani establishment’s worst fears about India, but also helps delegitimise Pakistani liberals as would-be traitors, even though they are the very persons calling for peace with India. In a word, cretinous.

Published in The Express Tribune, July 26th, 2011.

With friends like these – The Express Tribune
 
.
Response to Muse continued:

It’s not just Mr Tharoor!​


By Ejaz Haider

Published: July 26, 2011

The writer was a Ford Scholar at the Programme in Arms Control, Disarmament and International Security at UIUC (1997) and a visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution’s Foreign Policy Studies Programme

Shashi Tharoor is no fool. Quite the contrary. He is a high achiever and combines brilliance with great marketing skills. So, why would he pen an article in the Deccan Chronicle (“Delusional liberals”, July 21) that seems, on the surface, to be fairly lightweight? Precisely because he is smart.

He knows perception-formation is important; he also knows reinforcing perceptions is crucial; and he knows the basic rule about perceptions: They are quick to form but resistant to change. The last paragraph of his article must, therefore, be seen not as an exercise in naivete but in considered perception-formation and reinforcement. Let me reproduce it here.

“Indians need to put aside their illusions that there are liberal partners for us on the other side of the border who echo our diagnosis of their plight and share our desire to defenestrate their military (italics mine).” He then honours me by capping his article thus: “Nor should we be surprised: a Pakistani liberal is, after all, a Pakistani before he is a liberal.”

India has diagnosed Pakistan’s problem; the Pakistani military needs to be defenestrated (it means to throw something or person out of a window — sigh!); the liberals in Pakistan must share that diagnosis and work in tandem with India to do so. But because they don’t seem to, India must put aside the disillusion that she has any partners in Pakistan.

Let me leave Tharoor here for a while and note that this is an orchestrated exercise. We already know what Aatish Taseer wrote about the Pakistani military so I shan’t recap that. But there was another interesting piece in The Wall Street Journal, “Cut Pakistan loose” (June 9), by Nitin Pai, a young analyst who writes on military and economic affairs. Pai’s argument is that America and the world should cut Pakistan loose because Pakistan comprises two entities, the state and the military-jihadi complex. According to this thesis, the military-jihadi complex formulates policies and the state is a wretched, helpless entity that simply looks on while the military-jihadi complex troubles both the Pakistani state and the rest of the world. Pai concluded that recent developments have created a vertical fault-line between these two entities and Pakistan stands on the verge of a political transformation. This transformation should be allowed a free hand because it might just empower the Pakistani state. To this end, he wanted complete aid and funds cut-off since that money only reaches the military-jihadi complex.

(Read: What would happen if Pakistan and the US severed ties?)

Even a cursory study of the basic literature on what a state is and where it can be located (some of the best minds have been grappling with this) would tell us that Pai’s framework is deeply flawed. He knows it too. But like Tharoor, he too is not teaching a political science class. He is forming perceptions and reinforcing those that make someone predisposed to accepting his argument. His piece is not meant for the Political Science Quarterly but for mass dissemination.

But wait. The smartest of them is yet to come — Ashley Tellis. Tellis, an Indian-American, was adviser to former US ambassador to India, Robert Blackwill. Tellis also contributed immensely to the process that led to the India-US civil nuclear deal and he has been one of the strongest intellectual voices selling India and New Delhi’s vision of itself. He has successfully sold the idea that the US and Indian interests in the region, and especially vis-a-vis Pakistan, are synonymous.

In a recent article in The National Interest, captioned, “Pakistan’s army rule” (June 28), Tellis, after declaring Pakistan a “frenemy”, highlights the civil-military divide within this country, arguing that the US raid to take out Osama bin Laden has not only resulted in a “damaging enervation of Pakistan’s already-frail civilian authority”, but the army’s riposte has further strengthened “the power of the very military that has taken the country to perdition repeatedly since its formation”. No prizes for guessing the common strand in these articles — the civil-military divide and the military’s perfidy. The only way Pakistan can be redirected is by getting rid of the Pakistani military. Once that happens, Pakistan will become a ‘normal’ state and everyone could take the much-needed rest.

The liberals must join the rest of the world — and India — in doing this. But, to return to Tharoor, “Pakistani liberals are particularly prone to the desire to prove themselves true nationalists” because “it is the best way to ensure that their otherwise heretical opinions are not completely discredited by the men in uniform who hold the reins of power in the state”.

In these analyses, terms are bandied about loosely and that is deliberate. No one would call an Indian a “nationalist” in an accusatory tone. Not so with a Pakistani because Pakistani nationalism, as it presumably stands, is a function of the military’s worldview, not Pakistan’s. By this logic, a Pakistani must be a liberal first — as if there is a world-body of liberals that stands above and beyond their states — and a Pakistani only secondarily. The military must be defanged; Pakistan must accept India’s supremacy in the region as also the US interests because those are interests based on some conception of “universal values”. Disputes will be resolved, for sure — on India’s terms.

This is of course bogus in the extreme. But it works. It works because there is a civil-military divide in Pakistan; because the military has primary input in policymaking; because the civilians have, repeatedly, proved themselves largely incapable of asserting themselves. All these are facts. But then there are other facts. Consider.

Most peace initiatives towards India have come while Pakistan was under the jackboot. This should not have happened if the military requires a permanent state of war with India to retain its primacy in domestic affairs. (That has its structural reasons but this is not the place to go into those.) Similarly, Pakistan was pushed into the 1965 war by two civilians, not an army general (even though Ayub Khan should have known better). Pakistan’s nuclear programme is owed to a civilian prime minister, not a general. Pakistan’s decision to test was taken under a civilian prime minister and there’s credible evidence to suggest that the then-army chief was sceptical about it. Pakistan’s Taliban policy — in conjunction with the US — was formulated and implemented under a civilian prime minister and the ISI was opposed to it (in fact, until the Taliban captured Kabul in ’96, former DG-ISI Lt-Gen Hamid Gul (retd) would constantly refer to them as American stooges).

One can go on. But four points need to be kept in mind: One, the civil-military divide is Pakistan’s internal matter and we would do whatever it takes to ensure that this country moves towards effective civilian control of the military; two, this divide does not mean that those of us who are opposed to the military’s primacy would, ipso facto, ignore Pakistan’s security interests. Like every other state in the world, Pakistan is also a self-interested state and the rest of the world must live with this fact; three, we have no intention of defenestrating our military, even as we would continue to kick them to extract obedience; four, we don’t need advice from across the border, especially because the Indian pundits crawled on their bellies when Mrs Indira Gandhi slapped her two-year emergency rule. We have seen worse without giving up or giving in. Thank you!

(To be concluded)

Published in The Express Tribune, July 27th, 2011.

It
 
.
The need for certain Pakistanis to resort to the bogeyman The ISI/Army (responsible for each & every problem of Pakistan) does not address Pakistan's problems in any way.
 
.

Latest posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom