Pakistan’s ISI from the inside

[a. hussain]

I would agree with both of you. People do not want to look at ISI from 'inside' rather than what the 'others' in the world see.
They rather look at is international reputation.

I had, once, tried to do the same work as STEVE CLEMONS tried to do in the article.


http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistans-war/112116-isi-one-great-organisation.html

Guys we all are with our Security Agency & Army. But are we not allowed to question & point-out-any lapses (For curbing any future lapses). I know some guys might start questioning our loyalties but only Allah knows the truth which lies in one's heart. Can't our agencies crush & catch the agents/ spies/ terrorists working to destroy peace in Pakistan esp. Karachi & Baluchistan. They should expose to the Pakistani nation the true faces of any Politicians/Untouchables involved against Pakistan & its poor nationals.

Thanks

 

[VCheng]

If the answer to all of my questions is 'no', regardless of the justifications you made above, then the answer to your question is that 'the military perception continues to be correct, and Pakistan's national security concerns, legitimate'.

Fair enough, but please note, while there may be legitimate concerns both East and West (which I do recognize, believe it or not), my contention is that other geopolitical changes pose far greater risks to Pakistan, and sticking with a static perception of the pre-existing threats without recognizing the due importance of the new one posed by those events is leaving PA/ISI on the wrong foot and heading to a defeat.

Please let me state that my positions are geared towards a discussion with the clear intent of helping avoid such a defeat.

 

[53fd]

I also wanted to mention that the ISI is not above criticism or the law. If it was, the ISI chief would not have been grilled by the parliament for 11 hours in the aftermath of OBL's raid, & the ISI chief would not have offered his resignation. Is the ISI perfect? No. Has the ISI made mistakes? Yes it has, most notably the OBL raid. Then there are other issues as well. But criticisms against the ISI must flow through the right channels, not through people that really don't have a clue about the ISI & are just passing opinions. The ISI is the best line of defense for Pakistan, no matter how flawed it is.

 

[VCheng]

I also wanted to mention that the ISI is not above criticism or the law. If it was, the ISI chief would not have been grilled by the parliament for 11 hours in the aftermath of OBL's raid, & the ISI chief would not have offered his resignation. Is the ISI perfect? No. Has the ISI made mistakes? Yes it has, most notably the OBL raid. Then there are other issues as well. But criticisms against the ISI must flow through the right channels, not through people that really don't have a clue about the ISI & are just passing opinions. The ISI is the best line of defense for Pakistan, no matter how flawed it is.

Oh pray tell my dear Sir, what are the acceptable "right channels" that you refer to?

Please trust me when I say I have more than a few clues.

 

[53fd]

Oh pray tell my dear Sir, what are the acceptable "right channels" that you refer to?

Please trust me when I say I have more than a few clues.

Right channels, through legal channels.

a) Go to the Supreme Court if you have solid evidence against the ISI, for their alleged involvement in a heinous crime.

b) The ISI is under the jurisdiction of the government of Pakistan, hence it is the responsibility of the civilian government to keep the ISI under check. The civilian government should take a stand against the ISI if it feels like it is violating its authority.

 

[RAZA SAHI]

what concerns me the most is the absence of DIPLOMATS in ISI or the lack of their input and communication. a look at any of the worlds prominent agency would reveal a good deal of presence of diplomats & even buerocrats in it's structure. I think the ISI should work more closely with the FORRIEGN OFFICE, although the institutional capability & efficiency of the FORRIEGN OFFICE is not of the desired level, but still capable individuals should be catered for by the ISI.

 

[VCheng]

Right channels, through legal channels.

a) Go to the Supreme Court if you have solid evidence against the ISI, for their alleged involvement in a heinous crime.

b) The ISI is under the jurisdiction of the government of Pakistan, hence it is the responsibility of the civilian government to keep the ISI under check. The civilian government should take a stand against the ISI if it feels like it is violating its authority.

Last time I checked, public and intellectual discussions were still legal.

The same Supreme Court that was dismissed for looking into "disappeared" persons and was allowed to come back only after an "arrangement" to keep away from the ISI?

How devious to now blame it all on the "bloody" civilians for allowing the ISI to become the unruly monster that it has become!

 

[53fd]

Last time I checked, public and intellectual discussions were still legal.

It is legal sure, do whatever you want to. Don't expect anyone to listen to you though (or be part of the solution), because anyone can rant & regurgitate their opinions without facts.

The same Supreme Court that was dismissed for looking into "disappeared" persons and was allowed to come back only after an "arrangement" to keep away from the ISI?

The Supreme Court is the highest legal authority in the country, & if they can't exert themselves, then surely you have to blame them than the ISI or the Army.

How devious to now blame it all all the "bloody" civilians for allowing the ISI to become the unruly monster that it has become!

The ISI falls under the jurisdiction of the civilian government, so yes it is their fault if the ISI acts as an "unruly monster" (it has acted like that at times, but I still think it has done a fairly good job). I know you have a blind hatred against the Army & the Intelligence, but do not blame ISI for the incompetence of others. You cannot absolve the civilian regime by blaming their incompetence on the ISI.

 

[VCheng]

It is legal sure, do whatever you want. Don't expect anyone to listen to you though, because anyone can rant & regurgitate their opinions without facts.

As if I hope that the people who take my opinions seriously are to be found here!
Please do ignore what I say, as a few others do listen and that is enough for me.

The Supreme Court is the highest legal authority in the country, & if they can't exert themselves, then surely you have to blame them than the ISI or the Army.

LOL! What a wonderful circular argument! Well done Sir!

The ISI falls under the jurisdiction of the civilian government, so yes it is their fault if the ISI acts as an "unruly monster" (it has acted like that at times, but I still think it has done a fairly good job). I know you have a blind hatred against the Army & the Intelligence, but please do not blame ISI for the incompetence of others. You cannot absolve the civilian regime by blaming their incompetence on the ISI.

..... and another one repeated, equally disingenuous!

Edit: Oh, I am incapable of hating anything or anyone. I merely think, therefore I am.

 

[happycanuck]

Can they trust us for that matter? The issue is not trust but divergent interests -- that fuels the mistrusts.

Pakistan should carefully review its policies based upon:

US will remain engaged one way or another, in Afghanistan for the next fifteen years.

The dream of Strategic depth in Afghanistan is gone for atleast the next fifteen years.

India is fast becoming a global economic power and regional strategic partner of US.

Kashmir solution on the basis of self determination might trigger a breakaway of Pakistani Kashmir due to prevailing Pakistani economic conditions.

Water will become a contentious issue -- a life and death struggle for Pakistan very quickly.

The only country that can have any sort of leverage on India in near term would be US.

The fact that one can not bank upon our Arab Brethren in a crunch situation.

US is one of our largest export market for textiles

Pakistan has strained relations with all its neighbors except China.

Above all, our economy is in shambles!!!!


It seems our work is cutout for us -- let us focus inwards and sort out the issues that ails us from inside. The heady days of the Afghan Jihad are gone, it is a uni polar world and China is not going to take on US any time soon. Not atleat in the way we dream of -- "Jihad." Both need each other to survive and prosper for the next couple of decades.

Let us contend ourselves by remaining neutral in this tug of war and jostling for resources by granting port facilities to both China and the US provided, they contribute towards our economic uplift in a meaningful manner and not by installing old cranes at Gawadar!!!

The time has come that both China and US are becoming desperate for a toe hold near the mouth of the Gulf. Time to strike a deal for Pakistan!!! Now or never time once again.

While some individuals are speaking their mind from the nationalistic point of view it is good that you have looked at the situation from a realistic point of view and asked the leadership to bring the policies which will uplift the country in economic, educational, industrial sectors to start with.

I hope Pakistan gets blessed with individuals like you. It is individuals like you who can only lead the nation in the right direction. Keep up the good work. With best of regards and luck.

 

[53fd]

As if I hope that the people who take my opinions seriously are to be found here!
Please do ignore what I say, as a few others do listen and that is enough for me.

LOL! What a wonderful circular argument! Well done Sir!

..... and another one repeated, equally disingenuous!

You should rename your profile name as the "Master of conjecture"

There will be people that will love listening to conjecture, without any hard evidence; the Western media outlets are notorious for that, & of course their ratings remain high as well because they present 'popular notions' based on conjecture, & very little evidence. So please, cater to the wishes of your target audiences, & proceed.

Whenever you're serious about discussing the specifics on the ISI & the Army, instead of just regurgitating conjecture based on 'popular notions', then that discussion can actually be fruitful.

 

[VCheng]

You should rename your profile name as the "Master of conjecture"

There will be people that will love listening to conjecture, without any hard evidence; the Western media outlets are notorious for that, & of course their ratings remain high as well because they present 'popular notions' based on conjecture, & very little evidence. So please, cater to the wishes of your target audience, & proceed

Please discuss the topic and not me.

 

[53fd]

Please discuss the topic and not me.

I've been discussing the topic, but clearly you are just regurgitating conjecture of the media outlets. If you give me any specifics on the ISI, on what specific aspects are bothering you (with hard evidence, not conjecture), then we can have a much more fruitful discussion. It is easy to rant & regurgitate conjecture when you don't know the inside workings of an intelligence agency, but it will not likely result in anything fruitful.

For example: you want to blame the incompetence of the civilian government & the Supreme Court on the ISI/Army. The ISI/Army is your favorite bogeyman, & whatever they do or do not do will not make a difference to you.

 

[VCheng]

I've been discussing the topic, but clearly you are just regurgitating conjecture of the media outlets. If you give me any specifics on the ISI, on what specific aspects are bothering you (with hard evidence, not conjecture), then we can have a much more fruitful discussion. It is easy to rant & regurgitate conjecture when you don't know the inside workings of an intelligence agency, but it will not likely result in anything fruitful.

For example: you want to blame the incompetence of the civilian government & the Supreme Court on the ISI/Army. The ISI/Army is your favorite bogeyman, & whatever they do or do not do will not make a difference to you.

I think I have made my point, and you just reinforced it again. Thank you!

The ISI does not bother me at all actually. Why should it?

Okay, I will agree to your contention that the ISI is doing what it feels is right. Time will prove me right soon enough. Over and Out Sir!

 

[53fd]

I think I have made my point, and you just reinforced it again. Thank you!

What point?

The ISI does not bother me at all actually. Why should it?

Clearly it doesn't

Okay, I will agree to your contention that the ISI is doing what it feels is right. Time will prove me right soon enough. Over and Out Sir!

I never said ISI is above the law, or above accountability. It's not. I have never said the ISI hasn't made any mistakes. It has made mistakes, & continues to do so. The difference is that I don't blame the incompetency of others, & all the problems of the world on the ISI