Pakistan raises issue of F-16 sale with visiting US commander

[James David]

It is the Obama administration which directly offered the F-16 to Pakistan. Get your facts right.

Secondly, the JF-17 project was developed in cooperation with China, but we produce a lot of the at home now. Surely, Pakistan will always benefit quantum leap in upgrading the JF-17 as opposed to acquiring a highly sanction prone fighter like the F-16. That's my argument.

You want to get out? Feel free.

Well if what you say is true, you can always refuse the offer besides as people here always say the F-16 is crap and old and what have you. Well my friend it was nice talking to you although that went a little out of hand. see you around buddy!

 

[barbarosa]

Russia will not sell su35 in loan, In cash why not F16 from USA?

 

[Dalit]

Well if what you say is true, you can always refuse the offer besides as people here always say the F-16 is crap and old and what have you. Well my friend it was nice talking to you although that went a little out of hand. see you around buddy!

The F-16 isn't crap. It is a very good fighter, but it is highly sanction prone for Pakistan. People who say such things have no knowledge about F-16s operational capabilities. However, compared to other options, at a similar price tag, one could argue that better options are available nowadays.

 

[BABA AGHORI]

Again, the Su-35, J-10 variants and JF-17 upgrade are all possibilities. We can't do anything about your denial. All I know is that Pakistan has been conducting high level talks with Russian counterparts and this has been confirmed at the highest level. I take the word of those officials very seriously.

http://thediplomat.com/2016/03/pakistan-wants-10-more-f-16s-or-does-it-want-russian-su-35s/

I believe the word you were searching for is 'concerns' - not 'denial'.

if Paikistan gets su35 it would be a big win.. India created a lot of trouble for Pakistan just for 8 F16, just imagine at what level it will go for S35

 

[Dalit]

I believe the word you were searching for is 'concerns' - not 'denial'.

if Paikistan gets su35 it would be a big win.. India created a lot of trouble for Pakistan just for 8 F16, just imagine at what level it will go for S35

No, you're putting words in my mouth. The word denial that I used was perfectly correct.

The Indians have also gone to quite extreme lengths to disappoint the Russians. Don't forget that. India cannot blackmail other nations whether they can or cannot sell their stuff to Pakistan. You tried that with the RD-93 engines as well and we know who won in the end.

 

[Photon]

Su-35, J-10 variants, JF-17 upgradation and the twin seater version are all viable options. I never claimed that Pakistan is going to get Rafale or the EF.

Su -35 is not viable option for PAF. Not just because of the India factor.

It is a Russian aircraft, PAF has never operated a Russian aircraft.

It is twin engined , maintenance heavy aircraft, PAF does not operate twin engined aircrafts.

Besides having a huge life time cycle cost, PAF simply does not have the pockets to buy, maintain and operate an entirely new class of Russian heavy air dominance fighter.

Besides Su-35 is not what PAF requires at this moment.

PAF requires a dual seater aircraft with good night fighting and precision guiding capabilities. SU 35 does not fit the bill.

 

[MastanKhan]

What I may ask those alternatives are?

Hi,

They are Eurofighter---SU35----J10C's.

In our arena----against wot---the WMD7 is a great pod---there is nobody shooting back---so what if it cannot see at 45 km---but it is good at 25 km---so what is the big deal.

Paf has approached this issue out of sheer stupidity---ignorance---no homework done on how to approach the issue and how to claim the prize.

They did not take the american PULSE before they started on their crude journey this time---actually they did not want to believe when they were told indirectly---because they think they everybody is stupid and they are the most clever.

I can write it with confidence that it is not the same california or the U S since the san bernardino shootings---but they did not know it.

The best approach would have been to have accepted the chinese offer of 18 J10C's with aesa out of the existing stock and never asked for the F16's.

The U S itself would have been curious why the F16's were not selected---they were available. That would have been the best way to get the F16's and also with AESA.

because if pak had alredy gotten aesa from china in its J10's---then the U S would not have changed the balance of power---they would be supplying similar machines---oh well.

The eurofighter is still available---our friends still have some resource. As for electronics---Turkey has a very good pod---the chinese will get there in about 3-4 years---.

 

[Dalit]

Su -35 is not viable option for PAF. Not just because of the India factor.

It is a Russian aircraft, PAF has never operated a Russian aircraft.

It is twin engined , maintenance heavy aircraft, PAF does not operate twin engined aircrafts.

Besides having a huge life time cycle cost, PAF simply does not have the pockets to buy, maintain and operate an entirely new class of Russian heavy air dominance fighter.

Besides Su-35 is not what PAF requires at this moment.

PAF requires a dual seater aircraft with good night fighting and precision guiding capabilities. SU 35 does not fit the bill.

What kind of a logic is that? Just because Pakistan hasn't operated Russian fighters doesn't mean that it never will. Requirements change all the time.

Also, just because the PAF currently doesn't operate twin engine fighters doesn't mean that it won't in the future as well.

You seem oblivious of our requirements. Pakistan doesn't need a huge amount of air superiority fighters. Pakistan requires a decent amount which can act as a force multiplier and carry out naval duties.

No doubt that Pakistan requires a heavy air superiority fighter that can substitute the highly sanction prone F-16. Pakistan can always work out a favorable deal.

 

[Photon]

What kind of a logic is that? Just because Pakistan hasn't operated Russian fighters doesn't mean that it never will. Requirements change all the time.

Also, just because the PAF currently doesn't operate twin engine fighters doesn't mean that it won't in the future as well.

You seem oblivious of our requirements. Pakistan doesn't need a huge amount of air superiority fighters. Pakistan requires a decent amount which can act as a force multiplier and carry out naval duties.

No doubt that Pakistan requires a heavy air superiority fighter that can substitute the highly sanction prone F-16. Pakistan can always work out a favorable deal.

I never said, it never will. I said, it is not what you need right now, for your WOT.

Which is why, you had ordered those 6 dual seater and 2 single seater Blk 52s.

Su 35 is twin engined , maintenance heavy, air dominance fighter. It does not have any exceptional ground attack capabilities.
And the fact that PAF has never operated a Russian, twin engined bomber, makes it that much more expensive.

Everything will have to be started from scratch, including pilot training, spares , establishing maintenance depots, weapons acquisition..Not cost effective, if you are just buying couple of squadrons.

PAF simply does not have the pockets to operate this behemoth.

 

[Dalit]

I never said, it never will. I said, it is not what you need right now, for your WOT.

Which is why, you had ordered those 6 dual seater and 2 single seater Blk 52s.

Su 35 is twin engined , maintenance heavy, air dominance fighter. It does not have any exceptional ground attack capabilities.
And the fact that PAF has never operated a Russian, twin engined bomber, makes it that much more expensive.

Everything will have to be started from scratch, including pilot training, spares , establishing maintenance depots, weapons acquisition..Not cost effective, if you are just buying couple of squadrons.

PAF simply does not have the pockets to operate this behemoth.

We are looking long term because this is a lot of money being spent. We're not just looking at the WoT.

Long term requirements dictate that Pakistan should acquire a heavy air superiority fighter. A fighter which can exceed its best fighter which currently is the F-16.

The Su-35 fulfills every single requirement in this regard.

We have no issues with setting up things from scratch. That's a logical consequence of acquiring any new capability, but that should not act as a source of discouragement.

 

[Photon]

We are looking long term because this is a lot of money being spent. We're not just looking at the WoT.

Long term requirements dictate that Pakistan should acquire a heavy air superiority fighter. A fighter which can exceed its best fighter which currently is the F-16.

The Su-35 fulfills every single requirement in this regard.

We have no issues with setting up things from scratch. That's a logical consequence of acquiring any new capability, but that should not act as a source of discouragement.

Well the fact is , you do not have the money to buy this aircraft right now and unlike the Chinese, Russians don't give out their equipment on soft loans.

PAF waited three years to gather $ 270 million from its own funds and $240 million from FMF designated specifically for PAF( $80 million each year).

Before it was in position to order those 8 F-16s.

 

[Dalit]

Well the fact is , you do not have the money to buy this aircraft right now and unlike the Chinese, Russians don't give out their equipment on soft loans.

PAF waited three years to gather $ 270 million from its own funds and $240 million from FMF designated specifically for PAF( $80 million each year).

Before it was in position to order those 8 F-16s.

We certainly have cash to buy the first delivery. Also, we know how to work out deals. Since we could be a new potential costumer of Russia, they could offer a nice deal. Russia and Pakistan have a golden opportunity to bury the hatchet. Don't think of this as some ordinary fighter deal. This deal would be much more than that.

Having said that, we don't require a massive order. We can place an initial order and incrementally acquire more as demand dictates. This isn't rocket science.

 

[Photon]

We certainly have cash to buy the first delivery. Also, we know how to work out deals. Since we could be a new potential costumer of Russia, they could offer a nice deal. Russia and Pakistan have a golden opportunity to bury the hatchet. Don't think of this as some ordinary fighter deal. This deal would be much more than that.

Having said that, we don't require a massive order. We can place an initial order and incrementally acquire more as demand dictates. This isn't rocket science.

Look at from Russian pov.

1. You can not pay for these aircrafts in cash, require long terms loans and 'friendship prices'.

2 . Pakistan is a traditional enemy, you supplied anti Russian militias weapons and training.
You leased out bases to USA for spying on the Soviet union, at one time, they even threatened to nuke you.

3. You are enemy of Russia's staunchest ally and largest paying customer. Supplying these aircrafts to you will mean, taking a lot of heat from Indians and risk loosing their biggest customer.

So where is the upside for Russians in such a deal?

 

[ssethii]

F-16 is and will remain the premiere air superiority fighter in Asian theater, especially block 52+ for the foreseeable future. If it wasn't for it's strategical dominance in air, Indians wouldn't be crying out loud to stop the sale of just 8 birds to Pakistan.

 

[Dalit]

Russia doesn't have much incentive for it then , to offer Pakistan a discounted aircraft on deferred payment and soft loans, while at the same time offending a much larger, paying customer.

That is not for you to say. Like I said, this fighter deal will be much more than just a deal. Russia would send out a signal that it means serious business. Russia would love to have more influence in the region. They acknowledge how important Pakistan is. Pakistan Russia relations and trust would skyrocket to an entirely different level. This deal would mark a new beginning.