Pakistan raises issue of F-16 sale with visiting US commander

[Photon]

That is not for you to say. Like I said, this fighter deal will be much more than just a deal. Russia would send out a signal that it means serious business. Russia would love to have more influence in the region. They acknowledge how important Pakistan is. Pakistan Russia relations and trust would skyrocket to an entirely different level. This deal would mark a new beginning.

What can Pakistan do for Russia?

 

[Dalit]

What can Pakistan do for Russia?

What did India do for Russia? What do all countries do for each other? Don't stoop this low now.

 

[Photon]

What did India do for Russia? What do all countries do for each other?

In the beginning, Nehru's ideal of Socialism and Non alignment, matched those of Soviet Unions. Plus Pakistan had already become a part of American camp, was actively helping Americans, spy on Soviet Union..Hence it was logical for them to support India.

And now India has the money, India's is Russia's largest customer, with and economy, much larger than even Russian economy. But what does Pakistan have to offer?

 

[Dalit]

In the beginning, Nehru's ideal of Socialism and Non alignment, matched those of Soviet Unions. Plus Pakistan had already become a part of American camp, was actively helping Americans, spy on Soviet Union..Hence it was logical for them to support India.

And now India has the money, India's is Russia's largest customer, with and economy, much larger than even Russian economy. But what does Pakistan have to offer?

I don't need to have a history lesson.

All countries rely on each other. Pakistan is geostrategically a very important country. Russia seeks access to warm waters through economically viable routes. Russia can see how China is investing billions of dollars in building deep sea ports. It wants a share of the pie. It wants to build energy pipelines. It seeks contracts. Pakistan is a growing economy and a country of 200 million people. Who wouldn't want to influence important regional players? Is that good enough for you? Or are you now going to argue that this is all false?

Why does India seek passage through Pakistan to CAR? Answer this question.

Just because India has a larger economy doesn't mean that the rest of the world is going to ignore Pakistan. You Indians are living in lala land. Stop being delusional. This is outdated thinking. The world doesn't work like that anymore. Every country no matter how small or big is important in its own way. Just look at the Americans despite their unwillingness and so many accusations are still very quick to recognize how important Pakistan is.

 

[Photon]

I don't need to have a history lesson.

All countries rely on each other. Pakistan is geo-strategically a very important country. Russia seeks access to warm waters. It wants to influence important regional players. IS that good enough for you?

Thats the crap, you have been fed all those years, doesn't hold true anymore.

Russia can not access Pakistan or its warm waters because it is not Soviet Union , and there lie, 5 countries in between

Clearly Russians are not planning to capture Afghanistan again.

And even if they some how, manage to reach Afghanistan for trade, why would they prefer Pakistan and not Iran for accesses to warm waters. After all Iran is the shorter route and is already a Russian ally and relations with Iran, do not offend Indians.

So what's next?

 

[Dalit]

Thats the crap, you have been fed all those years, doesn't hold true anymore.

Russia can not access Pakistan or its warm waters because it is not Soviet Union , and there lie, 5 countries in between

Clearly Russians are not planning to capture Afghanistan again.

And even they some how, manage to reach Afghanistan for trade, why would they prefer Pakistan and not Iran for accesses to warm waters. After all Iran is already a Russian ally and their relation with Iran, do not offend Indians.

So what's next?

LOL You Indians are amazingly pathetic. These Central Republic States are under Russian influence thick head. Not a leaf moves in these places without Russian approval. The last time Western powers tried to intervene in Russian vicinity i.e. Ukraine you know what happened? Crimea got annexed! You think Russia will allow other powers to dictate terms in her backyard?

Just type in the following words in Google: India seeks Pakistan passage

You are just in denial because you cannot fathom the importance of Pakistan. Your American buddies would have ditched Pakistan long ago, but even they openly admit their reasons. Who are you to even lecture us about anything?

 

[Photon]

LOL You Indians are amazingly pathetic. Just type in the following word in Google: India seeks Pakistan passage

You are just in denial because you cannot fathom the importance of Pakistan.

India seeks passage because, it is shortest route to Afghanistan, where India wants to establish a foothold. Russians don't need Pakistan for reaching Afghanistan or for that matter CAR.

 

[Dalit]

India seeks passage because, it is shortest route to Afghanistan, where India wants to establish a foothold. Russians don't need Pakistan for reaching Afghanistan or for that matter CAR.

Exactly. Like I said, don't downplay Pakistan's importance. Every country has its own strength.

Russia would gladly seek access to warm waters through Gwadar. Why are you confusing this with CAR?

 

[Photon]

Exactly. Like I said, don't downplay Pakistan's importance. Every country has its own strengths.

Ya, but not too Russians.

 

[Dalit]

Ya, but not too Russians.

? You don't know what you're talking about. Russia has already announced massive interest in our steel industry. It has invested in pipeline projects. It has massive interest in the CPEC project. Russia seeks access to warm waters through Gwadar to the Middle East. You're very uninformed.

 

[Photon]

? You don't know what you're talking about. Russia has already announced massive interest in our steel industry. It has invested in pipeline projects. It has massive interest in the CPEC project. Russia seeks access to warm waters through Gwadar to the Middle East. You're very uninformed.

Find out, scale of actual Russian investment Pakistan and not MOUs, and then talk.

Besides when you actually sign a deal Su-35 , perhaps then you can have bragging rights for Pakistani importance to Russians, not yet.

 

[Dalit]

Find out, scale of actual Russian investment Pakistan and not MOUs, and then talk.

Besides when you actually sign a deal Su-35 , perhaps then you can have bragging rights for Pakistani importance to Russians, not yet.

Is that all you got left?

The fact that you're already having a heart attack when we are only discussing the possibility of the acquisition of Su-35 is very telling... LOL Imagine if we actually got them!

You just keep telling yourself fairy tales. In the meanwhile, we'll do whatever is in our best interest like we have always done.

 

[Photon]

Is that all you got left?

The fact that you're already having a heart attack whilst we are only discussing the possibility of the acquisition of Su-35 is very telling... LOL

You just keep telling yourself fairy tales. In the meanwhile, we'll do whatever is in our best interest.

Heart attack..hahaha , only you get off on the slightest possibility of acquiring a half decent aircraft.

First sign the deal, then talk about it.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Su -35 is not viable option for PAF. Not just because of the India factor.

It is a Russian aircraft, PAF has never operated a Russian aircraft.

It is twin engined , maintenance heavy aircraft, PAF does not operate twin engined aircrafts.

Besides having a huge life time cycle cost, PAF simply does not have the pockets to buy, maintain and operate an entirely new class of Russian heavy air dominance fighter.

Besides Su-35 is not what PAF requires at this moment.

PAF requires a dual seater aircraft with good night fighting and precision guiding capabilities. SU 35 does not fit the bill.

Pakistan operated the F-6 (Mig-17). These aircraft were licence built in China.
Pakistan also operated F-7 (Mig -21) These were also licence built in China and later were being built in Pakistan.

PAF pilots have flown Mig 17's of Jordan, Egypt and Syria. They have recorded aerial Kills with these aircraft.

As far as Pakistan in concerned they are able to maintain the Russian Aircraft. Though they have never purchased aircraft from Russia Directly.

In the past PAF has operated twin engine aircraft F-6 and A-5 Fatan in the past.

Can you elaborate on the part in red.

I never said, it never will. I said, it is not what you need right now, for your WOT.

Which is why, you had ordered those 6 dual seater and 2 single seater Blk 52s.

Su 35 is twin engined , maintenance heavy, air dominance fighter. It does not have any exceptional ground attack capabilities.
And the fact that PAF has never operated a Russian, twin engined bomber, makes it that much more expensive.

Everything will have to be started from scratch, including pilot training, spares , establishing maintenance depots, weapons acquisition..Not cost effective, if you are just buying couple of squadrons.

PAF simply does not have the pockets to operate this behemoth.

PAF is trying to minimize collateral damage which USA and NATO was unable to do in Afghanistan. For this PAF requires duel seat aircraft which carry a WSO, hence PAF has a requirement of more duel seat aircraft then single seat.

As far as the capabilities of SU-35 are concerned you should consider them equal to the SU-30 MKI's because that is the only reason IAF did not order the SU-35 and chose Rafales.

Well the fact is , you do not have the money to buy this aircraft right now and unlike the Chinese, Russians don't give out their equipment on soft loans.

PAF waited three years to gather $ 270 million from its own funds and $240 million from FMF designated specifically for PAF( $80 million each year).

Before it was in position to order those 8 F-16s.

Ohh not again...Funds are not the issue.

The issue is PAF wants to minimize the costs by increasing the numbers of F-16's so that it is able to procure a 5th gen fighter aircraft. So far PAF's initial requirement was of 100 F-16's which was increased to 200 aircraft in 2002. Today the total number of F-16's is no way close to that.

Hence if PAF has to procure aircraft from its own pocket then why should it go to the US for F-16 block 52's when it can get the F-16 V's?

Now if the USA does not allow the sale of F-16's then PAF should consider to replace these aircraft. This way they would reduce the over all flying of these aircraft keeping them in the air for an other 10-15 years.

If PAF goes for the SU-35 then it opens up the entire range of flankers. It also troughs out the agreement between Russia and China to supply J-11 series to PAF. It also offers PAF to get the J-10's with the Russian engines which power the SU-35's.

Both Russia and China would give loans because they know that the time PAF would be getting these aircraft would be for a very long time as the numbers would be increased over time. Moreover the cost of these aircraft is considerably lower then the US or European aircraft.

Russia doesn't have much incentive for it then , to offer Pakistan a discounted aircraft on deferred payment and soft loans, while at the same time offending a much larger, paying customer.

The Chinese do not want the SU-35 and were considering to cancel the order, now they might be negotiating that these aircraft are sold to PAF. China pays for them and PAF returns them the cost over time.

This is similar to what the Egyptians have done with France.

One must realize PAF has to replace around 200 aircraft. This is a huge requirement and no country would like to stay out of this kind of requirement.

The Indian MMRCA was of 130 aircraft and we saw interest from all manufacturers. Russia sent both Mig-35 and SU-35, BAE Euro-fighter Typhoon, Dassult Rafale, Boeing F-17's and Lockheed Martin F-16's.

 

[Dalit]

Heart attack..hahaha , only you get off on the slightest possibility of acquiring a half decent aircraft.

First sign the deal, then talk about it.

That's funny coming from a guy who belongs to a country that couldn't even sign the Rafale deal despite shaking so many hands at photo ops.

Why don't you sign the deal and get ripped off by the millions. LOL