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Pakistan raises issue of F-16 sale with visiting US commander

EF is 25% more expensive than Rafael, that is why it lost the MRCA bid.

36 EFs will cost $11 Billion.

It is Rafale. Not Rafael. You keep saying this...

Pakistan couldn't effort EFT in small numbers let alone large numbers. going by the Kuwait deal 28 EFT for $9 billion is $300 million each

J10C would be interesting, but do you want to induct another 4th gen fighter that's equal or inferior to the F-16?


best bet would be buy 8 used F-16 and upgrade them along the rest of your F-16s to the V standard. probably would cost $500 million.

The J-10C would definitely smoke the F-16. Even the earlier variants of J-10 are at the very least on par with the block 50/52 F-16.

PAF and PN require 2 sqd each for deep strike...This is 72 aircraft.

PAF is replacing 190-200 aircraft which is approximately 11 Sqd. So if PAF decided to replace these by 6-7 sqd of JF-17 and the remaining with EFT you get to the figure of approx 100 aircraft.

36 would cost around 3-4 billion but adding more would bring the price down which Pakistan is looking at.


These countries are willing to sell the EFT...
Germany is the only country that could possibly negate the sale....Highly unlikely because they want money at the moment.

Is it as expensive as operating Rafale or SU- 30 MKI....No

The EF is not only very expensive to acquire, but it is also very expensive to maintain. Don't underestimate its operational cost. I also don't know whether we would get a green light for its sale. Unlikely if you ask me.
 
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Because it is a long way to the ocean. And transporting over land costs many times more than transporting over the sea.

Why would Russia prefer a longer, more expensive trade route through, Kahzakistan, China , Pakistan.

When they can directly accesses Mediterranean through black sea.

But the main question, have Russians expressed any longing to join the CPEC...otherwise this is all a moot point.

I used to think Indian Ocean is a, well ocean! And Mediterranean Sea, a sea. Who knew?

Who said anything about Mediterranean? Gawadar serves to connect Xinjiang and CARs with Middle East, East and South Africa, Australia and Far East.

If Russia shows interest now, it is equivalent to sabotaging a project before it takes off. I fail to see why an economic opportunity will be missed by them and more importantly by CARs if it provides them with a viable route? Just because India thinks so?
 
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I used to think Indian Ocean is a, well ocean! And Mediterranean Sea, a sea. Who knew?

Who said anything about Mediterranean? Gawadar serves to connect Xinjiang and CARs with Middle East, East and South Africa, Australia and Far East.

If Russia shows interest now, it is equivalent to sabotaging a project before it takes off. I fail to see why an economic opportunity will be missed by them and more importantly by CARs if it provides them with a viable route? Just because India thinks so?

I understand, you guys are very excited about CPEC, but simmer down. So far no other Nation other than China wants to use CPEC, so don't count your chickens just yet.
 
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I understand, you guys are very excited about CPEC, but simmer down. So far no other Nation other than China wants to use CPEC, so don't count your chickens just yet.

I'm not excited, truth be told. But it will add to our economic prospects if we get it right. That much I know. India will do its best to sabotage CPEC and we need to watch out. India has made no secret of its intention which I find disgusting and lowly.
 
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I understand, you guys are very excited about CPEC, but simmer down. So far no other Nation other than China wants to use CPEC, so don't count your chickens just yet.

Like as if CPEC was built for any other nation than China. Which fool doesn't know that? If CPEC can fulfil China's requirements alone in its entirety we don't need any other country. We know how hungry China is and what the potential could be. Excited? We are electrified at the enormous prospects. Deal with it.

I'm not excited, truth be told. But it will add to our economic prospects if we get it right. That much I know. India will do its best to sabotage CPEC and we need to watch out. India has made no secret of its intention which I find disgusting and lowly.

We will return the favor in case of sabotage. Be rest assured.
 
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Pakistan couldn't effort EFT in small numbers let alone large numbers. going by the Kuwait deal 28 EFT for $9 billion is $300 million each

J10C would be interesting, but do you want to induct another 4th gen fighter that's equal or inferior to the F-16?


best bet would be buy 8 used F-16 and upgrade them along the rest of your F-16s to the V standard. probably would cost $500 million.
Do not know the exact details of the Kuwait EFT's hence can not comment much on them.

PAF does not have enough 4++ aircraft to cater against IAF. If it wants to remain conventional otherwise it would be a total nuclear war from the moment it started. Some thing the US are very worried about. Unfortunately 8 F-16blk 50/52's do not give much to Pakistan however they do a lot in the situation on the other border.

If you remember the initial order PAF placed in the 80's was for 100 F-16's which till this date has not matured. After 9/11 the requirement was increased to 78 Block 52's this was later reduced to 36 and that to 18.
Today the situation is much more complex as PAF is replacing 190 F-7's and Mirage fighters. How do you think 8 would replace 190?

Even if USA acceps to upgrade all the F-16's PAF has along with 8 new blk 52 to V's still that make is bar less in numbers. JF-17's on the other hand are going strong but they would only be made till block 4 which is 200 aircraft at the most. This would bring PAF's fighters to be up to 290 aircraft which is 110 aircraft short...

Not to mention Pakistan Navy is also in the process of having dedicated Fighter Aircraft so they would also require 1-2 sqd. aprox 36 aircraft. There was news some time back that PAF had asked the Navy to procure JF-17's which the Navy declined because they wanted deep strike aircraft. Though PAF had offered them 50 aircraft meaning a dedicated block for Navy.

If PAF decided to get a 5th gen aircraft and that too in numbers of 100 aircraft then this would simply tilt the balance of power which neither USA or Russia would approve. India would have no option other then getting the PAK-FA which India does not want because Russia is not providing the Indians enough Technical assistance.

USA would not give India the F-22 because that is not for export. India is not interested in F-35 and that too would take time for India to induct. The deal with Rafale is almost over because the Indians know Rafale would give the Indian no advantage over the Stealth Aircraft.

J-31 is offered but the aircraft is no where as compared to J-20. J-20 if bought by PAF would really be very interesting USA would have to send F-22's to be stationed in India, this would cause a greater imbalance of power.

One also knows that Afghanistan has created a vacuum and that might end up in an other civil war. Pakistan and other neighbouring counties would have to move in to secure their assets in Afghanistan hence a power struggle. Russia and China along with Pakistan and Iran would tend to enter Afghanistan in a similar way as the Syrian Army went into Lebanon.

Now if PAF does go after J10C which offers F-16 block 60 capabilities (Assuming) it would not offer any thing which the JF-17 block 3 would have. Hence it might not be considered.

Which aircraft can give PAF the qualitative edge and also some numerical advantage?
1) The SU-35:
SU 35 has an upgraded engine that gives it more Thrust to weight ratio. It also cover the Deep Strike roles required by PAF and also provides Air Supremacy.

If SU-35's are purchased then it also opens up the entire range of Chinese aircraft including J-10, J-11 to J-16. (AN IDEAL SITUATION).

India would consider this as being back stabbed by Russia.

2) Euro Fighter Typhoon
Though these aircraft cost a fortune but they are going to give PAF the required punch. 70 odd can do wonders of both PAF and PN.

3) Rafales
In case France offers PAF the latest and most advance package PAF would not be interested in these. Rafale might be offered to Pakistan because France is still unable to repay the R&D cost that she put in this project. Though they have sold some Rafales to the Egyptians and hoping to sell some to India which still does not equal the required numbers that they had hoped for. 70 Rafales would help PAF but they would not provide enough punch that is required.

"The fact is that the cost deferential between Typhoon and Rafale was very high... it would cost India around 22% to 25% more if the former had been selected. No government can agree to so much extra," the source said.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ovt-rules-out-review/articleshow/11830845.cms
Well this is a disputed figure because the British Parliamentarians had increased the costs to show that the Tornados should be used and maintained.

On one of the articles of Janes remember reading Operational cost per hour of Rafale is 19000USD which was based on Libya and Iraq operational data. Where as the EFT was 17000 USD for the same operation.

EDIT...https://defenseissues.wordpress.com/tag/eurofighter-typhoon-cost/

It is Rafale. Not Rafael. You keep saying this...

The J-10C would definitely smoke the F-16. Even the earlier variants of J-10 are at the very least on par with the block 50/52 F-16.

The EF is not only very expensive to acquire, but it is also very expensive to maintain. Don't underestimate its operational cost. I also don't know whether we would get a green light for its sale. Unlikely if you ask me.

We would have to wait and see how things go in the future.
 
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Well this is a disputed figure because the British Parliamentarians had increased the costs to show that the Tornados should be used and maintained.

On one of the articles of Janes remember reading Operational cost per hour of Rafale is 19000USD which was based on Libya and Iraq operational data. Where as the EFT was 17000 USD for the same operation.


Well if you don't believe the official MRCA bid submitted by European consortium, then believe this.

In April 2016 Kuwait ordered 28 EFTs for $9.062 Billion. Extrapolating this figure to 36 aircrafts, the deal would have costed $ 11.65 Billion.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/2016/04/05/kuwait-signs-eurofighter-deal/82647386/

Where as India has finalized an order of 36 Rafale aircrafts at $8.8 Billion.

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...billion-rafale-fighter-jets-reports/83120806/

Comparatively EFT is 24.4% more expensive than Rafale.

So you can forget about ever being able to afford EFTs
 
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Let me give a solution to break the impasse...since we are not in the position to pay the full amount now let's put down 270 million as our down payment and get the work started on our -16's,assuming they will not be delivered before 2-3 years let's sort out an installment plan with LM that is acceptable to all....let's face it this is the most economical way of modernising our AF
 
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If the goal here is to have aircraft for COIN and to fight insurgents, none of the fast "zoomies" you guys are talking about are really suitable. They are way too fast, they have to keep a safe altitude etc. etc and heavily dependant on Intel from the ground..Something like this would be far more suitable:
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/low-and-slow

It may not have the glam you are looking for, but sure as heck is effective - and cheap.

However, if all you are looking for is to bolster your Air Force against a conventional Air Force ( read India) then OK. Keep in mind Chinese aircraft like what you have have the Russian RD-33 powerplant ( the chinese engine is yet to mature)

So what do you want the 8 aircraft for? to handle the terrorists or something else? do some soul searching...
 
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If the goal here is to have aircraft for COIN and to fight insurgents, none of the fast "zoomies" you guys are talking about are really suitable. They are way too fast, they have to keep a safe altitude etc. etc and heavily dependant on Intel from the ground..Something like this would be far more suitable:
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/low-and-slow

It may not have the glam you are looking for, but sure as heck is effective - and cheap.

However, if all you are looking for is to bolster your Air Force against a conventional Air Force ( read India) then OK. Keep in mind Chinese aircraft like what you have have the Russian RD-33 powerplant ( the chinese engine is yet to mature)

So what do you want the 8 aircraft for? to handle the terrorists or something else? do some soul searching...

Hi,

The issue is that of the altitude---a lots of strikes take place over 6000 ft where mountain ranges are 10- 14-15-18000 feet.

Plus the terrs have phones and anti aircraft guns----. With the F16,s---the first their hear the bombs coming in and then the aircraft goin by---with the prop---they will be ready in advance----positioned at 10000 ft height---they will have a nice welcome 'mat' for the prop---.

You should ask---why did the U S not use props in afg.

The chinese WS13 has gone in production now.

"
The 18 March 2010 edition of the HKB report stated that a FC-1 equipped with the WS-13 completed its first successful runway taxi test.[2]

Officials at the Farnborough International Airshow in August 2010 stated that a JF-17 development aircraft is flying with a Chinese engine, which is most likely to be the WS-13.[3]

In November 2012, Aviation Week reported that a JF-17 Thunder was flying in China with the Guizhou WS-13 engine "----

Even Janes reported at paris air show 2015 that JF17's were flying with the WS13 in china.
 
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Hi,

The issue is that of the altitude---a lots of strikes take place over 6000 ft where mountain ranges are 10- 14-15-18000 feet.

Plus the terrs have phones and anti aircraft guns----. With the F16,s---the first their hear the bombs coming in and then the aircraft goin by---with the prop---they will be ready in advance----positioned at 10000 ft height---they will have a nice welcome 'mat' for the prop---.

You should ask---why did the U S not use props in afg.

The chinese WS13 has gone in production now.

"
The 18 March 2010 edition of the HKB report stated that a FC-1 equipped with the WS-13 completed its first successful runway taxi test.[2]

Officials at the Farnborough International Airshow in August 2010 stated that a JF-17 development aircraft is flying with a Chinese engine, which is most likely to be the WS-13.[3]

In November 2012, Aviation Week reported that a JF-17 Thunder was flying in China with the Guizhou WS-13 engine "----

Even Janes reported at paris air show 2015 that JF17's were flying with the WS13 in china.

Interesting points regarding the Chinese power plants..Here is what I read about the A-10 vs F-35..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...f-against-the-f-35-in-close-air-support-test/
The US Afgan commanders have been wanting the A-10 and keep getting turned down.

I know the talibunnies have MANPADs.. what kind? If they have Stingers, I wonder if they would even be functional. I would expect their anti-aircraft guns to be somewhat dated. Feel free to correct me!
 
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Interesting points regarding the Chinese power plants..Here is what I read about the A-10 vs F-35..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...f-against-the-f-35-in-close-air-support-test/
The US Afgan commanders have been wanting the A-10 and keep getting turned down.

I know the talibunnies have MANPADs.. what kind? If they have Stingers, I wonder if they would even be functional. I would expect their anti-aircraft guns to be somewhat dated. Feel free to correct me!

Hi,

They don't have any known manpads---and that is the saving grace till now.

But they do have Dshk 12.7 mm anti aircraft guns and if they are positioned on 6000---10000 ft high peaks---they can be deadly. Couple of pakistani helicopters have found them the hard way.
 
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Hi,

They don't have any known manpads---and that is the saving grace till now.

But they do have Dshk 12.7 mm anti aircraft guns and if they are positioned on 6000---10000 ft high peaks---they can be deadly. Couple of pakistani helicopters have found them the hard way.

True, but that gun appears to be a manual intensive thingy..check this out:


Hopefully ( for their sake, not ours) they are more skilled at using it than what the video shows. An A-10 coming at them with it's gatling gun blazing would be un-nerving
 
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True, but that gun appears to be a manual intensive thingy..check this out:


Hopefully ( for their sake, not ours) they are more skilled at using it than what the video shows. An A-10 coming at them with it's gatling gun blazing would be un-nerving
A warthog can take it easy..but we've lost quite a few blackhawks, UH-1s and even CH-47s to this stuff. An ambush on choppers with even this rudimentary weapon is deadly.
 
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A warthog can take it easy..but we've lost quite a few blackhawks, UH-1s and even CH-47s to this stuff. An ambush on choppers with even this rudimentary weapon is deadly.
agreed! They key would be to have proper ground intel before sending in a whirly bird
 
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