Pakistan nowhere in Obama visit to region

[TaimiKhan]

The timely assasination of Ahmad Shah Masoud due to his knowledge of the 9/11 plot seems to indicate that Al-Qaeda and Taliban may have very well been hand in glove....

Reasons being that the two parties to benefit from this were AQ and Taliban....
In addition, I find it hard to believe that at that point of time when Taliban was so powerful in Afg, that they would remain uninformed of an assasination plot or the reason behind it...
AQ had to be receiving protection from Taliban...

How did they benefited from his assassination, that also just before 9/11 ??

Rather, the beneficiary of him being killed was the USA, since they came to invade Afghanistan, no Afghan leader was powerful enough to have played its role in getting rid of the country of Taliban and then rebuilding Afghanistan, except for Ahmed Shah Masood. Had he been alive, i bet, he would not have let the US stay this longer and he had the quality of uniting the Afghans, plus he would not have allowed his Norther Alliance to be used the way US has done.

So he being assassinated had no benefit to Taliban and AQ.

Plus, there are many unanswered and intriguing questions regarding the death of Ahmed Shah Masood.

And as for taliban knowing about 9/11, they did not knew. AQ may have a set up in Afghanistan under Taliban, but AQ was independent. They were paying the Taliban, thus they had their own operational areas, training camps and were independent of the Taliban.

 

[notsuperstitious]

I think Obama will make a stop at Pakistan, but for security reasons they will not disclose it in advance.

 

[silent hill]

I think it will be a huge blunder on his part not to visit Pakistan. Pak is supposed to be a MAJOR non-NATO ally. So visiting Pakistan's archenemy and not visiting Pakistan will obviously distance US from her allies. It will be a major failure that serves no purpose.

I dont know what Obama is doing. Honestly, his foreign policy is a mess.

i think its a good sign, that pakistan should not engage in US matters any further..

2 minutes american president visit, serves no purpose

 

[karan.1970]

I think Obama will make a stop at Pakistan, but for security reasons they will not disclose it in advance.

My sentiments exactly..

 

[Peshwa]

How did they benefited from his assassination, that also just before 9/11 ??

Rather, the beneficiary of him being killed was the USA, since they came to invade Afghanistan, no Afghan leader was powerful enough to have played its role in getting rid of the country of Taliban and then rebuilding Afghanistan, except for Ahmed Shah Masood. Had he been alive, i bet, he would not have let the US stay this longer and he had the quality of uniting the Afghans, plus he would not have allowed his Norther Alliance to be used the way US has done.

So he being assassinated had no benefit to Taliban and AQ.

Plus, there are many unanswered and intriguing questions regarding the death of Ahmed Shah Masood.

And as for taliban knowing about 9/11, they did not knew. AQ may have a set up in Afghanistan under Taliban, but AQ was independent. They were paying the Taliban, thus they had their own operational areas, training camps and were independent of the Taliban.

TK....

AQ had a very valid reason to get rid of ASM since he was privy to the 9/11 plot.....NA's closeness to the US meant that he could have blown the lid on the 9/11 plot in itself......hence where does the US even come into the picture?...Isnt that considered the reason behind his assasination?
Secondly, arent you making a big assumption that the US was involved in plotting an attack against its own people? I find that hard to believe...


Secondly, you're contradicting yourself with the above highlighted statement....
ASM was opposed to Taliban rule (NA and Taliban have always been on the opposite sides of the spectrum esp. with their difference in ethnicities wrt their composition)....you have admitted that he was the only one powerful enough to raise the Afghans out of the brutal Taliban regime....Dont you think that this would be reason enough to get rid of him?

I think assasination of ASM was a classic "Two birds with one shot".....

And I think the benefits of killing ASM were more beneficial to AQ and Taliban and outweigh that of the US....

 

[Guli Danda]

Obama is a joker!
Pakistanis should be thankful that he isn't coming to Pak.

I wish that he didn't to come to India as well...

Someone correctly made this pic.

 

[SandsofTime]

From what I know, US had no direct evidence linking Osama to 9/11 attacks. All the evidence provided was circumstantial, possibly because Osama may not have had any direct hand in the attacks but merely acting behind the scenes by providing indirect guidance and extremist propaganda. AQ under Osama, is more credibly linked to attacks on US embassies and USS Cole bombing. US should have used that piece of evidence instead to demand extradition. This would be the minimal requirement for a formal extradition under international customs. Still, taliban were ready to hand over Osama to Saudi Arab. House of Saud being a puppet of US would have gladly beheaded him soon enough under strict Sharia laws and be done with the problem. Yet, US acted in haste and there wasn't anyone bold enough to knock sense into them at that time. Now, personally I am of the opinion that Osama is dead possibly from NATO bombings or from deteriorating health. It would now be next to impossible to discover his grave as it would most likely be in a concealed state and known to only a handful of people. The Americans know this but won't acknowledge it publicly since it would undermine the war movement and loose domestic support. The entire pretext of the war being that Taliban would support future attacks on Western countries, is in danger of falling apart. This mentality has to change sooner for the better otherwise US is likely to have results similar to Vietnam war.

Don't get me wrong, I strongly detest Taliban governance but this issue can only be solved by Afghans themselves which includes the Taliban faction. External forces cannot change the cultural and social dynamics of a nation in 10 years time. The project is long term spanning over decades and requires patience.

 

[TaimiKhan]

TK....

AQ had a very valid reason to get rid of ASM since he was privy to the 9/11 plot.....NA's closeness to the US meant that he could have blown the lid on the 9/11 plot in itself......hence where does the US even come into the picture?...Isnt that considered the reason behind his assasination?
Secondly, arent you making a big assumption that the US was involved in plotting an attack against its own people? I find that hard to believe...


Secondly, you're contradicting yourself with the above highlighted statement....
ASM was opposed to Taliban rule (NA and Taliban have always been on the opposite sides of the spectrum esp. with their difference in ethnicities wrt their composition)....you have admitted that he was the only one powerful enough to raise the Afghans out of the brutal Taliban regime....Dont you think that this would be reason enough to get rid of him?

I think assasination of ASM was a classic "Two birds with one shot".....

And I think the benefits of killing ASM were more beneficial to AQ and Taliban and outweigh that of the US....

If he knew about the plot of 9/11, then he must have told it to the Americans, as he was killed on the day or a day before 9/11 happened. So whats the use for Taliban or AQ killing him on the day these attacks were gonna happen. What's the logic then of knowing about the plot and still not telling the Americans, while killed on the day 9/11 happened. Had he known about the plot, he would have told the US, who would have done something to stop what was about to happen, since this not happened, AQ had no reason to kill him, as he did not knew the date nor place of what was about to happen. Thus his intel was the intel which the US authorities already had, and it was that AQ will strike in the US, they even had the plane hijacking scenario in mind, thus US already knew what can happen, when will happen, how will happen, who will do it, ASM did not knew, so it serves no purpose to have killed him by AQ. I won't take the name of Taliban, as they were the enemy of ASM but it was done not by them.

Strange thing is, the bombers got so close to him, with all the explosives and no one detected it, all those security checks and still they pass through. Did anyone check their credentials before letting the guys in for an interview ? Who they work for, which news channel, who arranged for their transportation, who arranged the interview and so many other questions. Must be not just a single source from the inside, rather multiple sources worked from inside.

And one of the bomber was injured and he tried to run and was shot. Now, how difficult it was for his security detail to have caught him, he was near by at the time of the explosion, must have been injured, he was in enemy territory, hundreds of troops would be in that area, and they couldn't capture or detain the bomber or his accomplice. And he is shot, thus we can never hear what he had to say, who sent him, how he got through, nothing whatsoever and without evidence, the blame goes to taliban or AQ.

Sorry, can't buy this argument.

And I did not said, he could defeat the taliban, i said, since US would have removed the Taliban, he could have came ahead to lead the Afghanistan, thus would have given US less option to move around or have a permanent stay, with him, US would not have been able to sit their puppet Karzai, as he was a leader and chances were strong that people would have gone with him, and US would may have to be told to leave, which the US did not wanted, as their plans were for long run, not short run.

And as for US, they are the kind of establishment, who will do anything for their own objectives, killing an ally is not a big problem for them, they can do worse then that. We saw that with the WMD lie for invading Iraq to achieve its own objectives. Not a new thing.

Plus, i am not at liberty to disclose more, otherwise i know much more about whats the game being played and the one which has been so far played.

 

[Safriz]

I think Obama will make a stop at Pakistan, but for security reasons they will not disclose it in advance.

And for security reasons he may be disguised as a little old lady.

 

[r3alist]

It ought to be Pakistan's WoT as much as ours.

let me put it in simple terms - pakistan never had one single suicide bombing before the US moved into the region

ditto for afghanistan

ditto for iraq


so the relationship is that the US brings war, destruction and chaos - where it did not exist before.


if you need further clarification i am happy to discuss.

 

[Peshwa]

If he knew about the plot of 9/11, then he must have told it to the Americans, as he was killed on the day or a day before 9/11 happened. So whats the use for Taliban or AQ killing him on the day these attacks were gonna happen. What's the logic then of knowing about the plot and still not telling the Americans, while killed on the day 9/11 happened. Had he known about the plot, he would have told the US, who would have done something to stop what was about to happen, since this not happened, AQ had no reason to kill him, as he did not knew the date nor place of what was about to happen. Thus his intel was the intel which the US authorities already had, and it was that AQ will strike in the US, they even had the plane hijacking scenario in mind, thus US already knew what can happen, when will happen, how will happen, who will do it, ASM did not knew, so it serves no purpose to have killed him by AQ. I won't take the name of Taliban, as they were the enemy of ASM but it was done not by them.

Strange thing is, the bombers got so close to him, with all the explosives and no one detected it, all those security checks and still they pass through. Did anyone check their credentials before letting the guys in for an interview ? Who they work for, which news channel, who arranged for their transportation, who arranged the interview and so many other questions. Must be not just a single source from the inside, rather multiple sources worked from inside.

And one of the bomber was injured and he tried to run and was shot. Now, how difficult it was for his security detail to have caught him, he was near by at the time of the explosion, must have been injured, he was in enemy territory, hundreds of troops would be in that area, and they couldn't capture or detain the bomber or his accomplice. And he is shot, thus we can never hear what he had to say, who sent him, how he got through, nothing whatsoever and without evidence, the blame goes to taliban or AQ.

Sorry, can't buy this argument.

And I did not said, he could defeat the taliban, i said, since US would have removed the Taliban, he could have came ahead to lead the Afghanistan, thus would have given US less option to move around or have a permanent stay, with him, US would not have been able to sit their puppet Karzai, as he was a leader and chances were strong that people would have gone with him, and US would may have to be told to leave, which the US did not wanted, as their plans were for long run, not short run.

And as for US, they are the kind of establishment, who will do anything for their own objectives, killing an ally is not a big problem for them, they can do worse then that. We saw that with the WMD lie for invading Iraq to achieve its own objectives. Not a new thing.

Plus, i am not at liberty to disclose more, otherwise i know much more about whats the game being played and the one which has been so far played.

TK....

I am not convinced...But then again, sitting here in the US, Im not privy to a lot of information that you may have access to thanks to your proximity to "ground zero"....
So lets just agree to disagree....

PS: Are you or were you in the armed forces by any chance?

 

[Peshwa]

let me put it in simple terms - pakistan never had one single suicide bombing before the US moved into the region

ditto for afghanistan

ditto for iraq


so the relationship is that the US brings war, destruction and chaos - where it did not exist before.


if you need further clarification i am happy to discuss.

Correlation does not equal causation....

Else we can draw several parallels that wouldnt really be to kindly to our nations....

The suicide bombers are Pakistani and Afghanistani.....So there obviously is a fundamental problem wrt the "malleability" of the people of this region...
Lack of Education may be a cause, lack of religious tolerance may be another and Poverty may be the biggest....but the question you should be asking is, how can we correct this so people of South Asia can make sane decisions without being motivated by instigators...

There will always be powers that will try to influence people....whether to be sheep and follow or make informed decisions depends on the strength of the society and mind which can only happen once there is a grassroot change in SA

 

[TaimiKhan]

TK....

I am not convinced...But then again, sitting here in the US, Im not privy to a lot of information that you may have access to thanks to your proximity to "ground zero"....
So lets just agree to disagree....

PS: Are you or were you in the armed forces by any chance?

not directly, but indirectly have lot of inside access.

 

[ajtr]

Obama may visit Pakistan this week: Reports​

Meanwhile, according to some unconfirmed reports, Obama could possibly make a visit to Pakistan this week. The reports, however, could not be confirmed.

Read more at: Obama may skip Amritsar during India visit: Sources

 

[Ras]

Well for one, there will be a large backlash from the opposition, as well as the public - all pointing to the govt to say: "We told you so, we said we're being prostituted, have given our lives on the order of that country, and their President can't even step off the plane to visit us whilst he's in the region, let alone say thanks"

That will ultimately place the govt in a pretty difficult and indefensible spot.

When someone you know, someone you consider your friend comes to your town after many years, you expect them to pay you a visit. But they don't, so that hurts. That hurts in Indian culture, that hurts in Pakistani culture too, hain na? But what if that person comes, visits your neighbour, whose house is to your right, and then visits your neighbour, whose house is to your left, but then doesn't knock on your door and leaves. It hurts even more doesn't it? Especially when you've done so much for them.

Taking that analogy, you can see this will cause resentment and consternation across the board. It will reinforce the suspicions and anger towards the US, not lessen them.

The govt is weak, it's seen as the slave of the US, and this will be a huge slap in the face, a massive snub. The consequences will be a media on the rampage, whipping up emotions, a public charged, the opposition (PML-N, PML, Islamic parties, PTI), all emboldened with a big stick to beat the govt. How can the govt save face? What can Zardari give as an excuse?

Unfortunately in many cases we've seen, we operate on a tit-for-tat basis when it comes to treatment accorded to India. Nuclear deal, military hardware etc. Anything that is a +1 for India, must be a +1 for us. That's the mindset, as petty as it might sound. So if he's visiting India, smiling and shaking hands with MMS in Delhi, he must do the same in Islamabad.

Skipping a stopover in Pakistan would be stupidity of the highest order from the US. The political equivalent of Obama handing the noose to Zardari & co.

My 2 cents.

Isn't making a few hour stop over like Clinton did while spending days in India more of an insult than not visiting at all?

Maybe the Indians are insisting that he only visits India(Afghanistan is visiting the troops not a state visit per se)...China does that wrt to Japan. They get mighty upset if the US president goes to Japan before or after a Chinese state visit.