Pakistan needs more nukes?

[v9s]

The entire Chinese assistance is well documented in books and articles about Pakistan's nuclear programme. AQ Khan himself confirmed it and provided evidence about it. The missile programme is connected to the nuclear programme - this is the main delivery system of Pakistan's nuclear weapons.

Yes i know about that. It's alleged that KRL was provided with assistance (HEU and a small nuclear weapon design), in return for helping the Chinese by providing KRL's centrifuge tech to the them.

The missile programme is the delivery system. I thought we were talking about the actual nuclear bomb device design. The cold test of the weapon designs tested between 1983-1990 were the ones developed indigenously by PAEC. If there was any Chinese help in the PAEC design, it has not been revealed yet. The KRL design (which was alleged to be a Chinese design) was thought to have failed the cold tests. Perhaps this Chinese design may have helped PAEC in their efforts but there has been no statement about that.

You are quite right, Your Pakistani fellow's insistence to claim the opposite was indeed absurd.

Well the way you worded your rant seemed as if you discounted the efforts of Pakistani scientists completely. In fact most of your rant was filled with bashing. Perhaps you shouldn't be so hostile next time.

 

[Viper0011.]

Well, it can be determined that Pakistan cannot be as powerful as India and the gap continues to grow. Developing more nuclear weapons will not help Pakistan in achieving strategic balance with India.

Well Shalom my friend. I went to a Jewish school and lived in a very Jewish town so most of my friends are Jewish and it's nice to see Israeli folks here. The discussion will be actually worth while compared to the Indian emotional movie drama that happens here a LOT.

Having this said, believe it or not, history tells me that there are TWO countries that were born on the name of religion, both Israel & Pakistan (and I wonder why the heck they are not friends??).

Both of them had to face a much bigger enemy and fight for survival and recognition. Israel obviously jumped ahead by leaps and bounds as it had the support of the west and the strongest lobby in US and everywhere so nothing was ever stopped. However, Pakistan wasn't that lucky. The military imbalance got worst during late 80's till 2005. Probably the worst time from a military advancement's standpoint for Pakistan.
Now just like Israel, Pakistan doesn't have a whole lot of land or depth, plus just like Israel, Pakistan faces a LOT bigger enemy on two sides full time and one part time so to speak (Afghanistan's growing Indian presence).
So the military planners have come to the same conclusion. Due to the lack of land / strategic depth, the cards call our for MAD. In Israel's case, it is one of the most powerful air forces and technically advanced countries. In Pakistan's case, they've just embarked upon the journey that Israel started since 1970's, aka, self reliance. But even then, if you ask Arab militaries or the Western defense analysts, they'll tell you that Israel has one of the largest stockpiles of NW's. Unannounced, unspecified and no one knows the threshold. In fact Arab's believe (and from a national safety's standpoint good for Israel), that Israel will have a real short fuse in case of a conflict. Even with it vastly superior military and air force, they believe that a small land captivity (if that can happen), would result in a small NW drop. THAT's what scares them the most and that's what I call holding your enemy by the balls.

Similarly, India knows it too. They are vastly large due to the population and advancement in the military. But irrespective of the BS talk you here about superman India, they know PA & PAF well. They also know the magnitude of response and yes, they will respond massively too, no doubt about it. No Aero, Akash or any SAM or ABM can every give a 100% safety assurance unless you appoint God on your borders. So the bottom line is YES, the NW's provide tremendous layer and cushion. India has been itching to power project and showcase Israeli, US and new Russian tech. What do you think stopped them after 2008 bombing? It was the fact that they'd measured the response and knew what they were going to get in return or where it'll take both the countries. I am glad that cooler head prevailed and I'd love to see Pakistan becoming friends with India for the betterment of the poor people in both countries. When a child is born, I don't think he knows that he's a hindu, muslim, christian or jewish. He does know when to cry for food, water, clothes etc. So the bottom line is, we weren't really born to fight with each other with NW's. I think we should work together to create a better future for all poor people!!!

 

[Omar1984]

Hello everyone,

Just a general question: Why Pakistan develops more nuclear weapons?

According to most estimates it already possess more than 50 nuclear bombs which are more than enough to deter India from any military campaign. The proofs are India's restraint in the Kargil Crisis, in the 2002 tension after the terror attack against the Indian parliament house in New Delhi, after 26/11 terror attack in Mumbai, and in the crisis of 1990.

Developing more nuclear weapons requires building an expensive plutonium programme: nuclear powers, nuclear fuel fabrication facilities and of course plutonium processing facility. Furthermore, it requires developing long-range missiles in equivalence to a satellite/space programme and tactical nuclear weapons for use against India's conventional forces. Pakistan has no extra money to spend around and all these nuclear capabilities cost a lot of money. Some of the nuclear infrastructure could be used for producing electricity but clearly most of the nuclear programme is design to developing nuclear weapons.

Any ideas will be welcomed.

Yes india is a threat to Pakistan and these nuclear weapons are very important to deter india, but there is a western country that loves to attack and invade Muslim countries. So Pakistan needs more nukes especially ICBMs.

 

[The SC]

Well Shalom my friend. I went to a Jewish school and lived in a very Jewish town so most of my friends are Jewish and it's nice to see Israeli folks here. The discussion will be actually worth while compared to the Indian emotional movie drama that happens here a LOT.

Having this said, believe it or not, history tells me that there are TWO countries that were born on the name of religion, both Israel & Pakistan (and I wonder why the heck they are not friends??).

Both of them had to face a much bigger enemy and fight for survival and recognition. Israel obviously jumped ahead by leaps and bounds as it had the support of the west and the strongest lobby in US and everywhere so nothing was ever stopped. However, Pakistan wasn't that lucky. The military imbalance got worst during late 80's till 2005. Probably the worst time from a military advancement's standpoint for Pakistan.
Now just like Israel, Pakistan doesn't have a whole lot of land or depth, plus just like Israel, Pakistan faces a LOT bigger enemy on two sides full time and one part time so to speak (Afghanistan's growing Indian presence).
So the military planners have come to the same conclusion. Due to the lack of land / strategic depth, the cards call our for MAD. In Israel's case, it is one of the most powerful air forces and technically advanced countries. In Pakistan's case, they've just embarked upon the journey that Israel started since 1970's, aka, self reliance. But even then, if you ask Arab militaries or the Western defense analysts, they'll tell you that Israel has one of the largest stockpiles of NW's. Unannounced, unspecified and no one knows the threshold. In fact Arab's believe (and from a national safety's standpoint good for Israel), that Israel will have a real short fuse in case of a conflict. Even with it vastly superior military and air force, they believe that a small land captivity (if that can happen), would result in a small NW drop. THAT's what scares them the most and that's what I call holding your enemy by the balls.

Similarly, India knows it too. They are vastly large due to the population and advancement in the military. But irrespective of the BS talk you here about superman India, they know PA & PAF well. They also know the magnitude of response and yes, they will respond massively too, no doubt about it. No Aero, Akash or any SAM or ABM can every give a 100% safety assurance unless you appoint God on your borders. So the bottom line is YES, the NW's provide tremendous layer and cushion. India has been itching to power project and showcase Israeli, US and new Russian tech. What do you think stopped them after 2008 bombing? It was the fact that they'd measured the response and knew what they were going to get in return or where it'll take both the countries. I am glad that cooler head prevailed and I'd love to see Pakistan becoming friends with India for the betterment of the poor people in both countries. When a child is born, I don't think he knows that he's a hindu, muslim, christian or jewish. He does know when to cry for food, water, clothes etc. So the bottom line is, we weren't really born to fight with each other with NW's. I think we should work together to create a better future for all poor people!!!

The comparison of Israel( an extremely tiny country with an atheist majority) with Pakistan is farfetched;

Jews in ancient times had a few tribes on Arab lands (by the way these original Jews were Arabs converted to Judaism, like the first batch of Christians too), while Pakistan Has the original Indus valley civilisation populace along with Afghanistan and south eastern Iran.

To compare a western political implant in the middle east with original people of a land called Pakistan, is not sound, nor is the military depth of Israel and Pakistan. Let alone the whole situation of the middle east and the south Asian one.

 

[Thorough Pro]

You are quite right, Your Pakistani fellow's insistence to claim the opposite was indeed absurd.

Although other countries received external nuclear assistance, the Chinese nuclear assistance to Pakistan is unprecedented. No other country delivered a foreign country highly enriched uranium and weapons design and technologies as China helped Pakistan.

Pakistan long-range missile programme is heavily based on Chinese technologies and always was (except AQ Khan's and KRL's efforts to develop the Ghuri based on North Korea's missile technologies). I will not be surprised if in one way or another China is still involved in Pakistan's missile programmes.

So what the heck is wrong with getting help from other countries? Where did the US got their missile technology? from abducted/lured/immigrant German scientists. Right.

Where did the Russians got their first jet engines? Rolls Royce of Great Britain

Where did the Israel got their nuclear and missile tech? US of A.

Yes! Pakistan did got help from China in nuclear but what and when is grossly mis-stated by western media. Pakistan setup uranium enrichment facility on its own, the enriched the fissile material on their own, may be they got some help in trigger design from China, but overall Pakistan nuclear programme was initiated and started by Pakistan itself and it 's engineers were very successful in whatever they were doing, even if they stole tech from other countries.

The point is even if we needed help in the start, at leat now we are independently improving our tech and designs be it nuclear feild or missile tech, conversly India is still heavely dependant on foreign support for its nuclear and missile programs. If they are not, good for them.

In the end where and how we got our gun is irrelevant, what matters is we are willing and can fire that gun if need arises, and improving it day by day to discourage any misadventures by anyside.

Pakistanis, like any other nation are humane, cool minded, educated and peace loving people who serve and respect their parents, love, get married, have and raise children and care for humanity.

On the collective what kind of relations a nations has with its neighours depends on the neighour itself. Pakistan has very good relations with China, Srilanka, Iran, Nepal, Bhutan. Maldeep, but enimosity towards India. Indai on the othe rhand has very bad relations with almost all its neighours including China, India, Srilanks, Bangladesh etc. etc.

So if one country has good relations with all neighour countries but bad with one, the other has bad relations with all, then it does not require any rocket science to figure out who is the trouble maker in the region... and unfortunately because the same situation exists with Israle, you;ll not agree with me, but that is your right and choice. Have a great week end.

 

[Kaniska]

Let us encourage Pakistan to be in the arm race for another 20-30 year while India should focus on its economy which is not doing well now a days...

 

[Rafi]

Lets cut the bullshit, Pakistan is seeking to modernize her deterrent with lighter more powerful warheads, using plutonium and tritium, we have a number in mind for the size and power of that arsenal, it is much less than the hype.

 

[Patriot]

Lets cut the bullshit, Pakistan is seeking to modernize her deterrent with lighter more powerful warheads, using plutonium and tritium, we have a number in mind for the size and power of that arsenal, it is much less than the hype.

Yeah I would ignore these cockroaches and rats who worry about our nukes...in any case, they will used against India so don't know why Israeli is getting ulcer because of Pakistani Nukes.I truly believe that in worse case scenerio we would need enough nukes to wipe out all Modern Cities of India and significantly reduce India population by at least 300-400 million.Rest will die like rats by fallout.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Indian government and media has been bleeding their ***** due to our nuclear program and this genious is talking about encouraging Pakistan, as thhough we need it from them......... how many idiots does this shithole have?

Let us encourage Pakistan to be in the arm race for another 20-30 year while India should focus on its economy which is not doing well now a days...

 

[Viper0011.]

The comparison of Israel( an extremely tiny country with an atheist majority) with Pakistan is farfetched;

Jews in ancient times had a few tribes on Arab lands (by the way these original Jews were Arabs converted to Judaism, like the first batch of Christians too), while Pakistan Has the original Indus valley civilisation populace along with Afghanistan and south eastern Iran.

To compare a western political implant in the middle east with original people of a land called Pakistan, is not sound, nor is the military depth of Israel and Pakistan. Let alone the whole situation of the middle east and the south Asian one.

Are you serious? This is the best you could come up with? I am sorry to see your counter argument. This is a military related forum. Prove me with otherwise factual statements to what I wrote. This cultural BS still doesn't help. What I wrote about Israel & Pakistan's bases of existence was correct. History has it, the military situation is also correct and available to public.....so not sure what your counter argument's about.

A healthy and productive discussion is where both parties use facts. Btw, how far back does the "Indus River" population foes? Remember, Islam came around 14+ centuries ago....Indus Valley & Moinjadoro traces of human life go way far beyond that. No one can confirm if these were Christians, Jews, Hindus or believers of books before Islam....
Also, Israel and Pakistan face seven times larger enemies on multiple sides of their borders. THAT was my point.

Let us encourage Pakistan to be in the arm race for another 20-30 year while India should focus on its economy which is not doing well now a days...

Right. I don't think that's the case. Pakistan will always modernize everything it's got to keep a minimum deterrence (thanks to India's power ride). I think Pakistani leadership should send flowers to the Indian establishment. Otherwise, they'll be FARRRR behind.
As far as the economy not working well nowadays..may ask your government to get off the horse of being a super power dream as it's not realistic when half a billion of the population sleeps without proper beds!

 

[nirreich]

Well Shalom my friend. I went to a Jewish school and lived in a very Jewish town so most of my friends are Jewish and it's nice to see Israeli folks here. The discussion will be actually worth while compared to the Indian emotional movie drama that happens here a LOT.

Having this said, believe it or not, history tells me that there are TWO countries that were born on the name of religion, both Israel & Pakistan (and I wonder why the heck they are not friends??).

Both of them had to face a much bigger enemy and fight for survival and recognition. Israel obviously jumped ahead by leaps and bounds as it had the support of the west and the strongest lobby in US and everywhere so nothing was ever stopped. However, Pakistan wasn't that lucky. The military imbalance got worst during late 80's till 2005. Probably the worst time from a military advancement's standpoint for Pakistan.
Now just like Israel, Pakistan doesn't have a whole lot of land or depth, plus just like Israel, Pakistan faces a LOT bigger enemy on two sides full time and one part time so to speak (Afghanistan's growing Indian presence).
So the military planners have come to the same conclusion. Due to the lack of land / strategic depth, the cards call our for MAD. In Israel's case, it is one of the most powerful air forces and technically advanced countries. In Pakistan's case, they've just embarked upon the journey that Israel started since 1970's, aka, self reliance. But even then, if you ask Arab militaries or the Western defense analysts, they'll tell you that Israel has one of the largest stockpiles of NW's. Unannounced, unspecified and no one knows the threshold. In fact Arab's believe (and from a national safety's standpoint good for Israel), that Israel will have a real short fuse in case of a conflict. Even with it vastly superior military and air force, they believe that a small land captivity (if that can happen), would result in a small NW drop. THAT's what scares them the most and that's what I call holding your enemy by the balls.

Similarly, India knows it too. They are vastly large due to the population and advancement in the military. But irrespective of the BS talk you here about superman India, they know PA & PAF well. They also know the magnitude of response and yes, they will respond massively too, no doubt about it. No Aero, Akash or any SAM or ABM can every give a 100% safety assurance unless you appoint God on your borders. So the bottom line is YES, the NW's provide tremendous layer and cushion. India has been itching to power project and showcase Israeli, US and new Russian tech. What do you think stopped them after 2008 bombing? It was the fact that they'd measured the response and knew what they were going to get in return or where it'll take both the countries. I am glad that cooler head prevailed and I'd love to see Pakistan becoming friends with India for the betterment of the poor people in both countries. When a child is born, I don't think he knows that he's a hindu, muslim, christian or jewish. He does know when to cry for food, water, clothes etc. So the bottom line is, we weren't really born to fight with each other with NW's. I think we should work together to create a better future for all poor people!!!

Shalom to you too, it is gratifying to have Americans in PDF who are interesting in Pakistan.

You discussed in length the connection between national security and nuclear strategy of both Pakistan and Israel. I agree that there is some similarities in the situation both countries face: lack of strategic depth, isolation in their own region against a bigger nemesis, and developing (or in the case of Israel - imaging) nuclear deterrent as a main tool to prevent military attacks.

However, while the perception of Israel as a nuclear weapons state is mainly a deterrence Pakistan declared itself as a nuclear weapons state and uses it nuclear capabilities as an umbrella to launch asymmetric war against India: from 1989 and until 26/11. Pakistan's bold only stregthened: at the beginning the terror attacks concentrated against India's presence in Kashmir under the pretext of a freedom struggle. When this terror campaign failed and India still did not show any sign of appeasement the Pakistan Army launched the Kargil Operation in 1999 by using the nuclear umbrella which was presented only a year ago (in the nuclear tests of May 1998). The army mistakenly thought the nuclear deterrence will guarantee the success of the military campaign as India will avoid a full conflict which might provoke nuclear threats. Well, India indeed restrained itself but the US and other countries forced Pakistan to stop the operation and it ended with no positive outcomes for Pakistan. After a limited military operation failed, Pakistan turned into terror attacks against important targets inside India (and not just in Kashmir) - the Parliament house in December 2001 and the Mumbai terror attack of 26/11 (one of three of such attacks).

On the contrary, Israel have an opaque nuclear policy - it never used the nuclear dimension to gain the advantage in the battlefield. Although Israel was perceived as a nuclear weapons country in 1973 that did not stop both Egypt and Syria to launch a full scale war against Israel.

Moreover, Pakistan is intentionally using its nuclear capabilities in an offensive way - first, as mentioned, to launch terror attacks against India; second, to assist other rogue countries (Iran, North Korea) to develop nuclear weapons and to destabilise current world order; and third, to blackmail the US for more military and economic assistance if the US does not want that the current regime will fall and Pakistan's nuclear bombs will be at the hand of extreme Islamic regime.

As you can see, the psych of the two countries is totally opposite: while Israel maintain an opaque nuclear policy and tried several times to end the conflict with its neighbours and the Palestinians by offering very generous compromises, Pakistan uses its nuclear deterrent to launch terror attacks, to blackmail the US, and to assist radical regimes to threaten peaceful countries. While Israel did its best to achieve some settlement in its region, Pakistan aspire to change completely the balance of power in South Asia and if necessary then to threaten international security.

As for the issue of this thread, I am quite puzzled and amazed by Pakistan aspirations to develop their strategic capabilities: dozens of nuclear reactors, a second nuclear strike, ICBM's, tactical nuclear weapons, and perhaps an hydrogen bomb. This efforts require substantial funds and resources which Pakistan does not have: it is already depends on external economic assistance.

Regardless of the danger of Pakistan's nuclear development to international security, this ambitious effort is more than the minimum nuclear deterrence Pakistan needs against India and which proved itself in the past.

 

[RayKalm]

Yes, our country needs more nuclear weapons. I believe that our army and military institution realizes this, and they are working to build more nuclear weapons in case of other conflicts and a full blown world war.

 

[logic]

Pakistan needs more electricity
Pakistan needs more infrastructure
Pakistan needs more development
Pakistan needs more finance
Pakistan needs more trade
Pakistan needs more production
Pakistan needs more services
Pakistan needs more hospitals
Pakistan needs more research
Pakistan needs more stability
Pakistan needs more honesty
Pakistan needs more stability

and a zillion more productive things.

Things Pakistan does not need more of are

1. Chest thumping
2. Corrupt politicians
3. illiterate Mullahs
4. Bragging rights
5. Delusions
6. War with Anyone

Pakistan needs smaller number of more advanced well protected and highly integrated high precision nukes just enough to deter aggression nothing more.

Huge numbers of unsafe third rate nukes will be the biggest nightmare of pakistan

 

[mosu]

Hello everyone,

Just a general question: Why Pakistan develops more nuclear weapons?

According to most estimates it already possess more than 50 nuclear bombs which are more than enough to deter India from any military campaign. The proofs are India's restraint in the Kargil Crisis, in the 2002 tension after the terror attack against the Indian parliament house in New Delhi, after 26/11 terror attack in Mumbai, and in the crisis of 1990.

Developing more nuclear weapons requires building an expensive plutonium programme: nuclear powers, nuclear fuel fabrication facilities and of course plutonium processing facility. Furthermore, it requires developing long-range missiles in equivalence to a satellite/space programme and tactical nuclear weapons for use against India's conventional forces. Pakistan has no extra money to spend around and all these nuclear capabilities cost a lot of money. Some of the nuclear infrastructure could be used for producing electricity but clearly most of the nuclear programme is design to developing nuclear weapons.

Any ideas will be welcomed.

yes we have right we can develop nukes what number we want

 

[RazorMC]

Note: The reply has been shortened (shown by "...") to conserve everyone's time

... You discussed in length the connection between national security and nuclear strategy of both Pakistan and Israel. I agree that there is some similarities in the situation both countries face: lack of strategic depth, isolation in their own region against a bigger nemesis...

The only similarity between Pakistan's and Israel's enemies was/is size. India's military fights under one flag while the Arab armies had been fragmented (losing any advantage they had over Israel's military) before and after 1947.

...at the beginning the terror attacks concentrated against India's presence in Kashmir under the pretext of a freedom struggle...

There was no pretext. There is a genuine movement inside the Indian part of Kashmir and it has been ruthlessly attacked by the Indian administration.

...the Pakistan Army launched the Kargil Operation in 1999 by using the nuclear umbrella... The army mistakenly thought the nuclear deterrence will guarantee the success of the military campaign as India will avoid a full conflict... but the US and other countries forced Pakistan to stop the operation... Pakistan turned into terror attacks against important targets inside India (and not just in Kashmir)...

The risk of nuclear war always exists between two nuclear-armed nations. The Kargil war was affected to an extent by the lack of proper air support (no BVR capabilities granted by the US, unlike Russian assistance to India). And no, Pakistan did not turn to terror attacks. No attack has had any state sponsoring.

Moreover, Pakistan is intentionally using its nuclear capabilities in an offensive way - first, as mentioned, to launch terror attacks against India... and to destabilise current world order; and third, to blackmail the US for more military and economic assistance...

Again, Pakistan is not launching attacks against India. Pakistan has reserved its military strength for defensive purposes only and not to "destabilize current world order". The US assistance is linked to their current war in Afghanistan, for the services we rendered to thier previous program in Afghanistan (Mujahideen). Their financial contribution to our nuclear program is well documented and does not represent a large portion of the assistance.

...while Israel maintain an opaque nuclear policy and tried several times to end the conflict with its neighbours and the Palestinians by offering very generous compromises...

Logically speaking, Israel did what was necessary for its interests, but many of those actions are nowhere close to generous. Remember the economic blockade of the Gaza Strip ??

Pakistan uses its nuclear deterrent... to threaten peaceful countries.

We have someone in custody (who belongs to a peaceful country, btw) for his involvement in terrorist activities inside Pakistan. With the exception of India, no other country in the wold has any reason to be concerned by our nuclear capabilitites as long as they don't attack us .

While Israel did its best to achieve some settlement in its region, Pakistan aspire to change completely the balance of power in South Asia and if necessary then to threaten international security.

Yes, the Israeli settlement issue gained international attention
But seriously, Pakistan only seeks deterrence and just enough capabilities to maintain its defense. There is no aim to threaten international security or to change the balance of power. We have every right to ensure a level playing field just as every other country in the world aims to do. So I see no big deal in this.