Featured Pakistan Navy Type 054AP Frigates - Update, News & Discussion

[LKJ86]

I have no inside info nor any plan data. Just a creation of my imagination. I think buying used 52c is a way forward all 6 of them. These 6 examples will provide enourmous amount of punch to PN and will be unrivalled for years ahead. Not only that I imagine before PN get them, they need to upgrade vls system with up to 72 multipurpose Chambers in front and remove extra round cells next to hanger to make room for additional chopper

Upgrade them with ciws 1130. Some electronics upgrade. And PN have a very decent platform to patrol vastness of sea. To do show of force and create buzz globally. Again these ships will be unrivalled for at least a decade or 2 sabs USN.

It is impossible for China to sell the Type 052C in near future, except in emergencies.

 

[syed_yusuf]

It is impossible for China to sell the Type 052C in near future, except in emergencies.

Why? Please elaborate...

 

[LKJ86]

Why? Please elaborate...

China will face more challenges from USA in coming years, and we need more warships.

 

[Armchair]

Brilliant posts by @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and @syed_yusuf ! I think that a few 052C could be interesting, but would it stretch the budget too far? Would it be a bridge too far and lead to a Greece-like situation? That would be more damaging.

But definitely Syed, the 6 052C are like low hanging fruit and if China can be convinced for the sake of protecting the CPEC, this could be a major breakthrough. Except for the aircraft carrier, with all the other purchases, PN would be on par with IN after such a purchase.

I'd also go for 1000 ton corvettes to add numbers to the mix, like Syed suggested elsewhere, without helicopter but fitted for ASW / ASu / PDMS.


Here is a thought that occurred to me - taking commercial advantage of a tragedy in the making. If Iran is attacked, a long tanker war will start. Gulf oil will need to be protected: reviving the Sloop-of-War at about 400-600 ton range. Use a commercial design like a Damen Offshore Support Vessel and arm it with 302s, Turkish 76mm main gun, machine guns, CIWS. Because of the OSV lineage, would have good endurance (30 days) and serve an excellent mercenary role.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Brilliant posts by @Bilal Khan (Quwa) and @syed_yusuf ! I think that a few 052C could be interesting, but would it stretch the budget too far? Would it be a bridge too far and lead to a Greece-like situation? That would be more damaging.

But definitely Syed, the 6 052C are like low hanging fruit and if China can be convinced for the sake of protecting the CPEC, this could be a major breakthrough. Except for the aircraft carrier, with all the other purchases, PN would be on par with IN after such a purchase.

I'd also go for 1000 ton corvettes to add numbers to the mix, like Syed suggested elsewhere, without helicopter but fitted for ASW / ASu / PDMS.


Here is a thought that occurred to me - taking commercial advantage of a tragedy in the making. If Iran is attacked, a long tanker war will start. Gulf oil will need to be protected: reviving the Sloop-of-War at about 400-600 ton range. Use a commercial design like a Damen Offshore Support Vessel and arm it with 302s, Turkish 76mm main gun, machine guns, CIWS. Because of the OSV lineage, would have good endurance (30 days) and serve an excellent mercenary role.

IMO the scope would be (at max) 2 Type 052Cs, one to head-up each sub-fleet (i.e. 2 Type 054A, 4 F-22P/Ada, etc) and provide high-level AAW coverage to the forces operating under them. The alternative, which might be better, is to push the Russians to equip the 054As with the 9M96E2 (120 km). That way, each of the 4 composite flotillas has medium-to-long-range AAW.

 

[Armchair]

IMO the scope would be (at max) 2 Type 052Cs, one to head-up each sub-fleet (i.e. 2 Type 054A, 4 F-22P/Ada, etc) and provide high-level AAW coverage to the forces operating under them. The alternative, which might be better, is to push the Russians to equip the 054As with the 9M96E2 (120 km). That way, each of the 4 composite flotillas has medium-to-long-range AAW.

The sheer power of the 052C in terms of the VLS cells would give a real table-turning difference. It would put PN in a position to go toe-to-toe. Would it make sense for China to keep such few 052C? Would they rather not just give all of them rather than just 2, and then have 4 left as orphans in the scale and size of the navy they have?

I think it would be interesting to have all 6 but this may be unrealistic financially and in administrative terms.

It may be unrealistic to get Russian equipment if the is being financed for CPEC safety, China will want to sell its own equipment. If not, the 9M96E sounds great and shares similar dimensions. May not be too much more expensive than the Chinese system.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The sheer power of the 052C in terms of the VLS cells would give a real table-turning difference. It would put PN in a position to go toe-to-toe. Would it make sense for China to keep such few 052C? Would they rather not just give all of them rather than just 2, and then have 4 left as orphans in the scale and size of the navy they have?

I think it would be interesting to have all 6 but this may be unrealistic financially and in administrative terms.

It may be unrealistic to get Russian equipment if the is being financed for CPEC safety, China will want to sell its own equipment. If not, the 9M96E sounds great and shares similar dimensions. May not be too much more expensive than the Chinese system.

Honestly, I was just thinking of building 2 new Type 052Cs. Or ask for 2 Type 054A-mods with HQ-9 and VL-LACM instead of HQ-16 (to add to the 4 Type 054As on order). But ideally, we'd push for (and get) the 9M96E2 for the 4 Type 054As on order and integrate the Denel Cheetah (10 km, VLS-based) to the F-22P and MILGEM for V/SHORAD + PDMS coverage.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Why isn't Pakistan interested in Aegis-like destroyers?

We are interested but our pockets does not allow us to consider big ticket items, I am very much interested to see at least 6-8 type 54A along with 2 type 52's until 2025 .

 

[Armchair]

Honestly, I was just thinking of building 2 new Type 052Cs. Or ask for 2 Type 054A-mods with HQ-9 and VL-LACM instead of HQ-16 (to add to the 4 Type 054As on order). But ideally, we'd push for (and get) the 9M96E2 for the 4 Type 054As on order and integrate the Denel Cheetah (10 km, VLS-based) to the F-22P and MILGEM for V/SHORAD + PDMS coverage.

Ah okay. But does the Denel Cheetah offer a capability upgrade over the present system on the F-22P?

 

[syed_yusuf]

The sheer power of the 052C in terms of the VLS cells would give a real table-turning difference. It would put PN in a position to go toe-to-toe. Would it make sense for China to keep such few 052C? Would they rather not just give all of them rather than just 2, and then have 4 left as orphans in the scale and size of the navy they have?

I think it would be interesting to have all 6 but this may be unrealistic financially and in administrative terms.

It may be unrealistic to get Russian equipment if the is being financed for CPEC safety, China will want to sell its own equipment. If not, the 9M96E sounds great and shares similar dimensions. May not be too much more expensive than the Chinese system.

somehow i think finance should not be an issue. it all depends who win next election. if next goverment able to expand tax net to 10K trillion PKR then why not?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Ah okay. But does the Denel Cheetah offer a capability upgrade over the present system on the F-22P?

Not in terms of range, but velocity (Mach 3+), i.e. better suited to counter supersonic-cruising AShM. Plus the Cheetah is a new missile platform, nothing (bar lack of funding and push) stops Denel from continuing to work its rocket motor to increase the range. It's a new platform, could become akin to the CAMM one day.

 

[Armchair]

Not in terms of range, but velocity (Mach 3+), i.e. better suited to counter supersonic-cruising AShM. Plus the Cheetah is a new missile platform, nothing (bar lack of funding and push) stops Denel from continuing to work its rocket motor to increase the range. It's a new platform, could become akin to the CAMM one day.

But how long will Denel be able to fund this? It seems the South African economy is in shambles, its politics in serious turmoil, and its white population (a good chunk of whom provide the brunt of their technical expertise) are being exterminated and are likely to leave in an exodus not too long in the future.

Denel is in no position to climb up the ladder of R&D for such high value items. Perhaps something Chinese or something Turkish has a far better chance of having a potential upgrade legacy.

Honestly, I would have much preferred NESCOM to have developed an alternative both for PDMS and VLS. The technical expertise is there, its just dumb planning.

somehow i think finance should not be an issue. it all depends who win next election. if next goverment able to expand tax net to 10K trillion PKR then why not?

Even if Imran Khan wins the election, things will take a long time to change as - for instance - the bureaucracy that deals with taxation will not overnight start working properly.

Also, Imran Khan is unlikely to emphasize major military expansion. His central promise will be to deliver local economic and social solutions.

There is a PTI paper called "Defending Pakistan" "Insaf for the Armed Forces" that you may find interesting. But its just a white paper not official policy of PTI.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

But how long will Denel be able to fund this? It seems the South African economy is in shambles, its politics in serious turmoil, and its white population (a good chunk of whom provide the brunt of their technical expertise) are being exterminated and are likely to leave in an exodus not too long in the future.

Denel is in no position to climb up the ladder of R&D for such high value items. Perhaps something Chinese or something Turkish has a far better chance of having a potential upgrade legacy.

Honestly, I would have much preferred NESCOM to have developed an alternative both for PDMS and VLS. The technical expertise is there, its just dumb planning.



Even if Imran Khan wins the election, things will take a long time to change as - for instance - the bureaucracy that deals with taxation will not overnight start working properly.

Also, Imran Khan is unlikely to emphasize major military expansion. His central promise will be to deliver local economic and social solutions.

There is a PTI paper called "Defending Pakistan" "Insaf for the Armed Forces" that you may find interesting. But its just a white paper not official policy of PTI.

The idea is to basically fund Denel's programs in return for turnkey ToT and R&D work in Pakistan. Denel is basically offering as much with its programs (e.g. Brazil has the option to set-up a parallel A-Darter line if it should choose to).

 

[Armchair]

The idea is to basically fund Denel's programs in return for turnkey ToT and R&D work in Pakistan. Denel is basically offering as much with its programs (e.g. Brazil has the option to set-up a parallel A-Darter line if it should choose to).

One can never learn how to do R&D without actually doing it - turnkey solutions will not provide real expertise, well that's my fear but I could be wrong. There is no substitute to the iterative process and hard work and sweat, that is why we humans are on earth and why we are superior to angels.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

One can never learn how to do R&D without actually doing it - turnkey solutions will not provide real expertise, well that's my fear but I could be wrong. There is no substitute to the iterative process and hard work and sweat, that is why we humans are on earth and why we are superior to angels.

That's true, but I do think some processes and capabilities can be bought to complement the native R&D process. It was that very mix of native and overseas capacity that helped Pakistan bring to nukes fruition and, to be fair, isn't a unique model, it's unfolding as such in Turkey and had taken place in China earlier.