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Featured Pakistan Navy Type 054AP Frigates - Update, News & Discussion

i personally belive by looking at other fields that china has gone from low tech poor country to high tech country in 25 years which is per WB an economical miracle in HUMAN history

even if this is partially applied to defence you should see the difference ..simply comparing 90s even 2000s era chinese tech with todays Chinese tech will bw foolish

after all the same was true for America once

quality vs quantity is another discussion. i dont see china chunning aircarfts like f7 these days i think they have moved beyond that
 
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Even untrained terrorists in Syria can shot down 2 Mi8 helicopters and 1 Mig21 with Chinese FN-6 Manpads at year 2013. And shot down 1 Mi35 helicopter and 1 Bell 407 heli at year 2014.

Even untrained terrorists in Syria can shot down 2 Mi8 helicopters and 1 Mig21 with Chinese FN-6 Manpads at year 2013. And shot down 1 Mi35 helicopter and 1 Bell 407 heli at year 2014.
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The first time saw J20 I didn't even believe it's made in China. But Yang Wei and his group pulled it off, it's about enormous boost of China's comprehensive national strength in the last 15 years. First should give credit to Deng's open-up policy. Those Chinese engineers can do anything with enough money.
i personally belive by looking at other fields that china has gone from low tech poor country to high tech country in 25 years which is per WB an economical miracle in HUMAN history

even if this is partially applied to defence you should see the difference ..simply comparing 90s even 2000s era chinese tech with todays Chinese tech will bw foolish

after all the same was true for America once

quality vs quantity is another discussion. i dont see china chunning aircarfts like f7 these days i think they have moved beyond that
 
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Untrained rebels using Chinese manpads is a different story from hundreds of millions of dollars worth Frigate, or a 5th generation aircraft.
Qatar inducting Chinese SAMs doesn't make them "combat proven".

This is how the US builds the best weapons - it has a for-profit arms industry (in contrast, China has state owned, highly inefficient industries). Notice that China has made great strides in its privately owned industry.

As I was saying, the US has its privately owned industry that builds high quality, high R&D weapons. These weapons then get tested in real conflicts, and improvements are made, constantly, with constant upgradation.

Sadly some Chinese internet posters don't understand the significance of this process. When China built the K-8, it had PAF test it out. It was found the landing gear was faulty, the PAF designed one to fix the problem. Why couldn't China do it? Because it doesn't understand this iterative process of how to improve and fix products.
The cycle of R&D, build and test, get feedback, repeat.
China however has Pakistan and it likes to give its equipment for testing to them. This is only a very superficial solution, as combat testing is often not possible. Nor the cohesive integration and communication, where the end-users give real inputs to the engineers and scientists.

This is the only way known to humanity to constantly progress. It is called the iterative process. The Hegelian synthesis -thesis, anti-thesis, synthesis. The reason theologically, humans are the best of creation - we make mistakes, we improve and learn from them... the basis of science and knowledge.

This simple thing is easily understood except by some who have missed this boat completely. For some, they just make photocopies of everything they see. And think this is development.

With all the time the Chinese had to fix the J-7, it took an American company to come up with the cranked wing. And even then, the engine was, even in its last iteration flawed - sucking up too much gas idling on the runway. How do you teach A, B, C to a man who thinks he is a PhD?
 
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20 years ago, no one in China even dare to think of having weapon like type 055 DDH and J20. But now we have those, simply because we are rich now. We poured thousands of billions in R&D, it's time to reap the fruits.
 
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Was saying something about teaching A, B, C to someone who thinks he is a PhD... worth pondering over for those of us who think being rich and pouring a lot of money on R&D alone will solve the gap between the West and China.
 
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@Armchair Having money may not get you far, but you certainly can't get far without a lot of money.
Look where a lot of money has gotten us to.
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Supersonic/Hypersonic stealthy heavy combat drone

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055, one of the best destroyers

cb02f4632ea9bc2b9f9940fdc4cfe5b9

Chinese railgun

If you have no faith in China's weapon systems, then you should consider other suppliers such as the US or France that put strings attached and don't share technology.
 
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Lets not get too excited by words like "battle proven." PN is well familiar with the medium quality of Chinese produced craft but the real reason is not what you mention.



Remember that Chinese derive their doctrine to be Saturation from the Communist Father, not Precision what we derive from our Western mother. The military hardware only portrays the military doctrine behind it. Hence, their products will continue to be about numbers, but since we are not used to that, or have money to handle it like that, we will continue to have a mismatch with the situation. Light years you say? I don't see any warp engines installed on the vessels.

Dear Sir. Eighteen years ago, Mr. Bush Jr. became president of America. This is the bellicose tyrant who laid waste to Iraq based on pure lies. Within the first 100 days of his presidency, China had forced a cutting edge American ELINT plane to land on its territory. Then, despite forceful American demands, they took their time examining it before returning the crew and the plane. Eighteen years ago China didn't have J-20, HQ-9, DF-21. Yet, they looked the world's super power in the eyes and treated them with scorn. This is a feat that even Russia is unable to match. For me, this is battle proven enough. When the world's super power can't force it's demands on you, you have already won the battle.

China, above everyone else, understands what kind of existential threat it faces. Knowing what the enemy is capable of, why would they short change themselves? Are you saying that China isn't even sincere to itself? China has a combined threat from Japan, Australia, India, America, and Britain. Not to mention Taiwan and even Singapore. If they are able to keep all of them in check, then I most certainly want their weapons.

If, for some reason, we believe that their are some quality issues with their weapons, then why are we not asking for ToT and removing the quality issues ourselves? We did this with RD-93 by acquiring maintenance of hot area harnesses from Safran. Yet, we don't go around talking about low quality Russian weapons.

A facts based comparison of Chinese quality can be obtained by looking at the cash rate of F-7 vs JF-17. Both platforms are of Chinese origin, yet we all know the quality of the Thunder. We should be applying the Thunder template to other areas. Thus will develop true brotherly cooperation. Here is a quote from the CEO of an extremely high performance Australian company that actively hides the true nature of its business: Culture eats strategy for breakfast. A culture of brotherly cooperation in increasing quality is a million times more important than the strategy of prefering Western weapons. Because culture is sustainable in the long term, whereas strategy is only as good as the assumptions it makes.

Have a good day!

@wanglaokan @royalharris
 
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100% Chinese comes this forum because our goverment educate us that Pakistan is our iron brother since we are young. It's about deep passion for Pakistan.
Then our iron brother shall have faith in us, and we will be together growing into a new high level in the future.
Pakistan is China's Israel, it never changes.
I know Chinese weapon is not the best in all areas, but definitely it can fight hard in war.
 
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Very interesting. Does the sole OHP have something similar onboard? What other ships could potentially have the range to launch Harbahs at max range?
Nope. IIRC none of our ships have such a radar at the moment, but I imagine the stand-off range target detection and tracking can be done via the KE AEW&C (which should have OTH capability)

With the Type 054A, we'll have a surface-level OTHR. I suppose the only area left would be land-based OTHR (for Zarb). China's SLR-66 OTHR works from both ships and land, so we could just get a bunch of those (for the Type 054A and coastal AShM units).
 
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We will challenge USA's hegemony in Asia Pacific when we are strong enough(within 20 years). Sooner or later there will be a large scale war in SCS, then all system will be battle proven. Many people will die, its doomed.
There is a saying in China: there will not be two male tigers in one Moutain.
 
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Nope. IIRC none of our ships have such a radar at the moment, but I imagine the stand-off range target detection and tracking can be done via the KE AEW&C (which should have OTH capability)

With the Type 054A, we'll have a surface-level OTHR. I suppose the only area left would be land-based OTHR (for Zarb). China's SLR-66 OTHR works from both ships and land, so we could just get a bunch of those (for the Type 054A and coastal AShM units).

My personal opinion is that OTH capabilities will come through space based remote sensing and AEWACS. But we never know what would be the result of evaluations by PN. If they see enough benefit in OTHR, they may go or it. It should also be noted that MoDP yearbook for 2016 contained an item about VLF radar.
 
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We will challenge USA's hegemony in Asia Pacific when we are strong enough(within 20 years). Sooner or later there will be a large scale war in SCS, then all system will be battle proven. Many people will die, its doomed.
There is a saying in China: there will not be two male tigers in one Moutain.
We will reach unconventional parity by 2020, and conventional parity by 2035 and finally obtain overall superiority by 2049, 100 years since the founding of the republic.
 
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Did not China weapon sold to Pakistan kill any individual enemy since our relationship establishment in 1960s? Or it's not battle proven just because you didn't use it in war?

When I heard the word of western mother, I almost throw up.


Valuable post or just shit?

Flattering has its limit.

PDF has tendency to flatter each other between Proffesional and Consultant no matter it's right or wrong? Today I'm trying to break it.i gonna earn the respect China is due.
Blabbering like a lunatic will not get you anywhere either. I have earlier explained to you that we have a tradition of respecting our senior Ex Service men. We do it to acknowledge the service they have provided to the motherland. People have different styles of writing and while one may not agree one has to accept an alternative point of view. You are still stinging from the last altercation that you had with @Bilal Khan 777 which is pitiable to see from someone wh9 claims to be a friend of Pakistan. So please grow up!
Anyways my post was not referred to you. If you have something positive to contribute then please do so otherwise please spare me the crocodile tears.
China is well respected in Pakistan your hopping up and down carrying the red flag is not going to add anything to the debate.
Regards.
A
 
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Blabbering like a lunatic will not get you anywhere either. I have earlier explained to you that we have a tradition of respecting our senior Ex Service men. We do it to acknowledge the service they have provided to the motherland. People have different styles of writing and while one may not agree one has to accept an alternative point of view. You are still stinging from the last altercation that you had with @Bilal Khan 777 which is pitiable to see from someone wh9 claims to be a friend of Pakistan. So please grow up!
Anyways my post was not referred to you. If you have something positive to contribute then please do so otherwise please spare me the crocodile tears.
China is well respected in Pakistan your hopping up and down carrying the red flag is not going to add anything to the debate.
Regards.
A
It's now you need to grow up and open your eyes. He maybe served in the army 20 years ago, but things changed a lot since then. So why not get off the high horse and start to accept the reality?
I have no personal grudge with him, I just refute him every time he demean our weapons.
 
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