Featured Pakistan Navy Type 054AP Frigates - Update, News & Discussion

[MastanKhan]

China will sell Pakistan any systems if and when Pakistan wants it, require it and pay for it.
Pakistan is china's single largest importer of arms. It gives creditability when Pakistan buys specific Chinese platforms like 8 submarine contract, Type054 and various missile systems. Pakistan provides a very economical defense barrier vis a vis india... so what weapons china sells to Pakistan is like china defending itself.
Diversifying arms sources is also a requirement Pakistan should follow as a policy and for technology reasons too.

Why President Xi addresses Pakistan Iron Brothers?

Hi,

what people have a problem in understanding is---if everything is available to pakistan---then why does pakistan not go for the best of the best.

And their question is legitimate---because that is what they see with many other countries---who buy weapons too big for their need---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Israel is a different example. They will never ever be sanctioned. they have unlimited options from where to buy.
You are right israel are in the hitech like electronics, UAVs, and sub systems but they are 8th largest arms exporter.
Recently we saw how US sanctioned LHTEC T800 engine for Pak T129.
Pakistan has the manpower and intelligence to manufacture many weapons systems, Turboshaft, turbofan, and diesel engines will be high mark for Pakistan but Pakistan should keep working on fighter jets, corvettes, FFG's, Tanks, missiles, light weapons and rockets in JV but yes, game of the future is AI, autonomous platforms and smart weapons which dont need heavy industry just a focus and pool resources.

Hi,

There is one thing you are in error---.

The US did not sanction pakistan per say---. Pakistani generals out of sheer stupidity made the americans sanction pakistan---.

Is there any civilian member on this forum who did not know that pakistan will be sanctioned for american engine---?

 

[Incog_nito]

Oh bhai, first let these type 54s gets delivered to PN than after few years we can think about other possibilities. Abhi yeh project pora hua hai nahi, agaey ki baatein shru.

Pakistani response - ususal.

Oh bhai, first let these type 54s gets delivered to PN than after few years we can think about other possibilities. Abhi yeh project pora hua hai nahi, agaey ki baatein shru.

Pakistani response - ususal.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Hi,

There is one thing you are inerror---.

The US did not sanction pakistan---. Pakistani generals out of sheer stupidity ade the americans sanction pakistan---.

Is there any civilian member on this forum did not know that pakistan will be sanctioned for american engine---?

Pakistan is under sanctions?

 

[peagle]

Hi,

Pakistan's future is in JV's---because it has reached the minimum design / manufacturing capability.

The question arises---why would pakistan want to invest in new technologies when China and turkey are doing so---. It is a pure wastage of funds---.

Look at Israel---it is still buying from Germany and france and USA---the major items---and has its focus deep into EW packages---the ones that would really really make the difference.

So---pakistanis need to learn and UNDERSTAND---glory is not in manufacturing the big item---when you colleagues are manufacturing it---.

The glory is manufacturing the small EW gadget that turns the tables around---.

Between china Turkey & pakistan---only pakistan has a combat experience against a very advanced enemy in real times---.

That experience in itself is worth a few billion dollars by itself---.

China has a great assembly line experience in manufacturing the 054's---and same with Turkey regarding the Milgems---.

So---why does pakistan need to travel towards redundancy---when there is another venue wide open for development---.

I see your point, and having read your posts before, i did not expect this line of thinking from you. Why are you limiting yourself, we may be financially restrained for the time being, but you seem to be forgetting Pakistan is the fifth largest country in the world, with a population of 232 million, that's 23 times larger then Israel, 3 times larger then Turkey. So, no matter what our financial constraints right now, surely one strives to be better, and not see one self perpetually to remain poor. We have to plan, and plan to act like we are a large country, we potentially will have a diverse economic base, if we limit ourselves from the outset, we'll get no-where, and perpetually crying about lack of this and that.

Pakistan is expected to have a population of around 400 million within the next 30-40 years, we should be planning for a better future, not limiting ourselves to be playing a role of a minnow for eternity. If we keep relying on others for all big ticket items forever, we will never be anything better then a bunch of lackeys. I am sure we all teach our kids to do the best in life, and to strive to be the best, why the double standards, and restrictions in aspirations for our country.

Israel may be more advanced right now, but there are reasons behind that, it does not mean we set out targets in comparison to a country 23 ties smaller then us, and will be 40 times smaller by the time we stop growing. Taking incremental steps, like the Jinnah project is not a big deal, it is merely a few steps along a path towards a mature economy and self reliance. These projects do not just bring benefits by giving us a finished item, in this case a frigate, but it accrues whole range of other benefits, seen and unseen, mature industrial capacity, higher quality human resource, confident within the citizenry, and so many other measurable and unmeasurable benefits.

I am truly shocked at the lack of self confidence among our people. The whole world shouts from the roof tops about their own positives, and being the fifth largest country in the world is something we all seem to just brush under the carpet as if it has no value. Our entire planning whether military, commercial, or otherwise has to be done by taking into account our size now, and our potential size in the future, if we do not do that we forever remain servants to serve one master or another, that, I think is shameful.

 

[MastanKhan]

I see your point, and having read your posts before, i did not expect this line of thinking from you. Why are you limiting yourself, we may be financially restrained for the time being, but you seem to be forgetting Pakistan is the fifth largest country in the world, with a population of 232 million, that's 23 times larger then Israel, 3 times larger then Turkey. So, no matter what our financial constraints right now, surely one strives to be better, and not see one self perpetually to remain poor. We have to plan, and plan to act like we are a large country, we potentially will have a diverse economic base, if we limit ourselves from the outset, we'll get no-where, and perpetually crying about lack of this and that.

Pakistan is expected to have a population of around 400 million within the next 30-40 years, we should be planning for a better future, not limiting ourselves to be playing a role of a minnow for eternity. If we keep relying on others for all big ticket items forever, we will never be anything better then a bunch of lackeys. I am sure we all teach our kids to do the best in life, and to strive to be the best, why the double standards, and restrictions in aspirations for our country.

Israel may be more advanced right now, but there are reasons behind that, it does not mean we set out targets in comparison to a country 23 ties smaller then us, and will be 40 times smaller by the time we stop growing. Taking incremental steps, like the Jinnah project is not a big deal, it is merely a few steps along a path towards a mature economy and self reliance. These projects do not just bring benefits by giving us a finished item, in this case a frigate, but it accrues whole range of other benefits, seen and unseen, mature industrial capacity, higher quality human resource, confident within the citizenry, and so many other measurable and unmeasurable benefits.

I am truly shocked at the lack of self confidence among our people. The whole world shouts from the roof tops about their own positives, and being the fifth largest country in the world is something we all seem to just brush under the carpet as if it has no value. Our entire planning whether military, commercial, or otherwise has to be done by taking into account our size now, and our potential size in the future, if we do not do that we forever remain servants to serve one master or another, that, I think is shameful.

Hi,

That is a nice emotional pitch---. Joint ventures creates allies that pakistan is in desperate need of---.

The 230 mil population of pakistan equates to a mush---nothing of much substance other than nucs manufactured by a totally different generation of scientists.

You intro does not tell me your age---so I cannot tell if your level of confidence is all bravado or something of substance---.

As the steps get higher---the increase in difficulty has a multiplier effect in building it.

I mean to say---these are not just toys---these are mainstay weapons that you have to face a 10 times larger enemy with---.

These weapons should not be made just because we want to---to satisfy our ego---these weapons need to be made by the best ally that we have---for the best results---.

Pakistan is under sanctions?

Hi,

The helicopters not delivered by the US---the engines for turkish helicopters---are these not sanctions----????

 

[peagle]

Hi,

That is a nice emotional pitch---. Joint ventures creates allies that pakistan is in desperate need of---.

The 230 mil population of pakistan equates to a mush---nothing of much substance other than nucs manufactured by a totally different generation of scientists.

You intro does not tell me your age---so I cannot tell if your level of confidence is all bravado or something of substance---.

As the steps get higher---the increase in difficulty has a multiplier effect in building it.

I mean to say---these are not just toys---these are mainstay weapons that you have to face a 10 times larger enemy with---.

These weapons should not be made just because we want to---to satisfy our ego---these weapons need to be made by the best ally that we have---for the best results---.

Hi,

Emotions have nothing to do with it, and neither does my age, 2+2=4 no matter what age you are or even if you are Einstein. With respect I prefer to ague the point, not live on judgements of who or why something is said.

Please contest my points, rather then making judgements, I hope we are trying to have a mature discussion, what I stated is factual truthful. I do recognise the incremental ladder of difficulties as you progress along a technological ladder, but, with all due respect, yours is a silly point. No country would develop at all, if all you thought about was the difficulties involved. The Chinese were doing fine riding their bikes, the world was fine riding horse, it takes time and effort to develop, you cannot place chains or yourself, just because it is hard. And 232 million means heck of a lot, ask Israel if they would like to be 232 million strong, see what answer you get.

If we use your logic with regards to education, we might as well forget it, give the kid a trade and forget schooling. He or she will have a living and a family life, education is expensive, time consuming, where you make nothing at all for a long time, and its gets bloody hard at every stage, college, wow, Degree, forget it, Masters, man that's crazy, PHD forget social life and everything else. The point being each country goes through a process, Pakistan has not started to jump around and put all its resources into pure research, we have started taking baby steps, and that is the right approach, somehow people seem to think that is too much, how does that make sense. JF17, al-Khalid tank and Jinnah project are baby steps, please don't add any more value, but they are incrementally important steps.

For the record, the enemy is not 10 times larger, please at least present accurate comparisons, rather then making bold statements. Population wise the difference is 6 times larger, area wise 4 times, and economy wise roughly 8 times, but everything is in flux economically. But, the difference was even bigger historically, what's your point? are you saying we should not have put the effort into developing the JF17? or the al--Khalid, or any of the other items, we took on the enemy before we had domesticity produced any weapons, and have done better after having developed domestic capabilities. For some reason there is a problem with navy developing domestic capacities, based on some weird logic that the enemy being larger. Why not just sit at home and do nothing?

Lets go back in time and tell our scientists, and leadership in the 1970s, please do not develop nuclear weapons, it is too hard and an impossible task. Please brother recognise yourself, and recognise we need these baby steps, so we can take long strides in the future.

 

[waz]

Brothers stick to the topic.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Emotions have nothing to do with it, and neither does my age, 2+2=4 no matter what age you are or even if you are Einstein. With respect I prefer to ague the point, not live on judgements of who or why something is said.

Please contest my points, rather then making judgements, I hope we are trying to have a mature discussion, what I stated is factual truthful. I do recognise the incremental ladder of difficulties as you progress along a technological ladder, but, with all due respect, yours is a silly point. No country would develop at all, if all you thought about was the difficulties involved. The Chinese were doing fine riding their bikes, the world was fine riding horse, it takes time and effort to develop, you cannot place chains or yourself, just because it is hard. And 232 million means heck of a lot, ask Israel if they would like to be 232 million strong, see what answer you get.

If we use your logic with regards to education, we might as well forget it, give the kid a trade and forget schooling. He or she will have a living and a family life, education is expensive, time consuming, where you make nothing at all for a long time, and its gets bloody hard at every stage, college, wow, Degree, forget it, Masters, man that's crazy, PHD forget social life and everything else. The point being each country goes through a process, Pakistan has not started to jump around and put all its resources into pure research, we have started taking baby steps, and that is the right approach, somehow people seem to think that is too much, how does that make sense. JF17, al-Khalid tank and Jinnah project are baby steps, please don't add any more value, but they are incrementally important steps.

For the record, the enemy is not 10 times larger, please at least present accurate comparisons, rather then making bold statements. Population wise the difference is 6 times larger, area wise 4 times, and economy wise roughly 8 times, but everything is in flux economically. But, the difference was even bigger historically, what's your point? are you saying we should not have put the effort into developing the JF17? or the al--Khalid, or any of the other items, we took on the enemy before we had domesticity produced any weapons, and have done better after having developed domestic capabilities. For some reason there is a problem with navy developing domestic capacities, based on some weird logic that the enemy being larger. Why not just sit at home and do nothing?

Lets go back in time and tell our scientists, and leadership in the 1970s, please do not develop nuclear weapons, it is too hard and an impossible task. Please brother recognise yourself, and recognise we need these baby steps, so we can take long strides in the future.

Hi,

Age matters---.

There is no discussing the point without knowing the base of experience and background.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Emotions have nothing to do with it, and neither does my age, 2+2=4 no matter what age you are or even if you are Einstein. With respect I prefer to ague the point, not live on judgements of who or why something is said.

Please contest my points, rather then making judgements, I hope we are trying to have a mature discussion, what I stated is factual truthful. I do recognise the incremental ladder of difficulties as you progress along a technological ladder, but, with all due respect, yours is a silly point. No country would develop at all, if all you thought about was the difficulties involved. The Chinese were doing fine riding their bikes, the world was fine riding horse, it takes time and effort to develop, you cannot place chains or yourself, just because it is hard. And 232 million means heck of a lot, ask Israel if they would like to be 232 million strong, see what answer you get.

If we use your logic with regards to education, we might as well forget it, give the kid a trade and forget schooling. He or she will have a living and a family life, education is expensive, time consuming, where you make nothing at all for a long time, and its gets bloody hard at every stage, college, wow, Degree, forget it, Masters, man that's crazy, PHD forget social life and everything else. The point being each country goes through a process, Pakistan has not started to jump around and put all its resources into pure research, we have started taking baby steps, and that is the right approach, somehow people seem to think that is too much, how does that make sense. JF17, al-Khalid tank and Jinnah project are baby steps, please don't add any more value, but they are incrementally important steps.

For the record, the enemy is not 10 times larger, please at least present accurate comparisons, rather then making bold statements. Population wise the difference is 6 times larger, area wise 4 times, and economy wise roughly 8 times, but everything is in flux economically. But, the difference was even bigger historically, what's your point? are you saying we should not have put the effort into developing the JF17? or the al--Khalid, or any of the other items, we took on the enemy before we had domesticity produced any weapons, and have done better after having developed domestic capabilities. For some reason there is a problem with navy developing domestic capacities, based on some weird logic that the enemy being larger. Why not just sit at home and do nothing?

Lets go back in time and tell our scientists, and leadership in the 1970s, please do not develop nuclear weapons, it is too hard and an impossible task. Please brother recognise yourself, and recognise we need these baby steps, so we can take long strides in the future.

Hi,

Building weapons is all about experience. There is no second guessing after the product has been built---.

Who better to build an 054 than the chinese---they are producing this ship at a break speed while keeping the quality up---because they assembly line is of seasoned technicians and engineers.

Howe about the Turks---their assembly line and manufacturing techniques are very seasoned as well.

Then why would you want your mainstay weapon to be build by you---. When you do it---all the mistakes are your's to own---. When you have JV's---when other interests are involved---then others can speak up about the errors or omissions that you have made---or you can speak up for the errors or shorcomings of the others---.

The bottom line is that a top notch product---has to have a team of the best manufacturers.

 

[imadul]

Hi,

There is one thing you are in error---.

The US did not sanction pakistan per say---. Pakistani generals out of sheer stupidity made the americans sanction pakistan---.

Is there any civilian member on this forum who did not know that pakistan will be sanctioned for american engine---?

Actually for for Bell AH-1Z Vipers (that's on a side note) I was sure they will be sanctioned...most probably you and may other thought so. But sanctioning LHTEC T800 for T129 was a shocker while Pakistan served obediently in Afghanistan. That sanction effectively sabotaged Pakistan defense against India cold start.

Sorry, admins for going tangential....

 

[waz]

I'll ask once again stick to the topic.
I don't want to thread ban.

 

[araz]

China will sell Pakistan any systems if and when Pakistan wants it, require it and pay for it.
Pakistan is china's single largest importer of arms. It gives creditability when Pakistan buys specific Chinese platforms like 8 submarine contract, Type054 and various missile systems. Pakistan provides a very economical defense barrier vis a vis india... so what weapons china sells to Pakistan is like china defending itself.
Diversifying arms sources is also a requirement Pakistan should follow as a policy and for technology reasons too.

Why President Xi addresses Pakistan Iron Brothers?

Disagree. NO NATION will sell their top notch defence product to anyone. The Chinese are no different. There have been times wjen they have not allowed the visiting PN officials to view their latest submarines. Similarly J20 is/out of bounds.
A

 

[LKJ86]

Type 054A/P No.2
View attachment 693041View attachment 693042
Via @铁幕君SSS from Weibo

Type 054A/P #2

Via @军戈飞扬 from Weibo

 

[imadul]

Disagree. NO NATION will sell their top notch defence product to anyone. The Chinese are no different. There have been times wjen they have not allowed the visiting PN officials to view their latest submarines. Similarly J20 is/out of bounds.
A

Things are relative. Pakistan wont be asking for J-20. The support and logistics infra will be expensive. Similarly Pakistan wont be looking for big destroyers like type 055.
But is type 054B will be as capable as Constellation class Ficantieri FFG that china wont sell?
India got SSN on lease from russia, israel got F-35, russia sold S400, so Pakistan can also get other modern platforms if it needs that platform. But Pak will need capability of support infra and funding. I do agree countries may not sell their most sensitive platforms but in today's time it is all commercial except some items.