Pakistan Navy: The Phoenix Rises

[Abingdonboy]

The problem with nuclear reactors though is,if "there exists" one,the whole world will know about it! It is a freaking power plant-although a smaller one! It is not as easy as lets say hiding your nukes


@Oscar
Again,"if it exists" the whole world will know about it as it is a NUCLEAR POWER PLANT and not a warhead that you can hide in trucks or something else! The sheer size required(I am talking about the building and required infrastructure etc) to construct the naval prototype will reveal if pakistan does indeed have a naval reactor. And to be honest,no one under estimates pakistan. We very well know "how" pakistan acquires itz strategic weapons--but at the end of the day-what matters is,no matter how illegally pakistan would have eventually realized her nuclear ambitions--it can still wreak havoc!
But here we are not talking about nukes,we are talking about a "nuclear plant" that cant remain hidden for long.Btw,how do you think you will hide a complete nuclear power plant?

You are bang on the money @amardeep mishra, anyone seriously suggesting that Pakistan has a working land based miniture naval reactor is either outright lying or out of their minds.

The world watches these developments very, VERY closely. It is not as easy to to conceal such efforts as many here are wrongly assuming, there is a very strict control on the very specific equipment needed to operationlise such a facility, not to mention the fact that such an almighty R&D effort WOULD have very distinct signatures.

If Israel is able to track the developments of Iran/Iraq/Syria's nuclear/chemical production programs then you had better believe the US and India are able to also.The argument that AQ Khan was able to acheive something "similar" in the 70s/80s in regards to Pakistan's nuclear weapons is an entirely false equivalence (nuclear bombs =/= nuclear reactors) and anyway I think we can all fairly assume non-proliferation efforts have come a LONG way in the past 30 years and it is not only governments that watch these things closely but independant monitoring groups.

If I was a Pakistani it would take a lot more than simply "take my word for it" these things are happening to be convinced but some are SO desperate to induldge their fantasies. It is frankly an insult to our intelligence that someone, no matter how senior they may be on PDF, are expecting us to buy this nonsense.

@PARIKRAMA @Levina @nair @SpArK @R!CK @randomradio @Vergennes @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @Levina @ayesha.a @punit @MilSpec @hellfire @dadeechi @Water Car Engineer @acetophenol @sathya

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

You are bang on the money @amardeep mishra, anyone seriously suggesting that Pakistan has a working land based miniture naval reactor is either outright lying or out of their minds.

The world watches these developments very, VERY closely. It is not as easy to to conceal such efforts as many here are wrongly assuming, there is a very strict control on the very specific equipment needed to operationlise such a facility, not to mention the fact that such an almighty R&D effort WOULD have very distinct signatures.

If Israel is able to track the developments of Iran/Iraq/Syria's nuclear/chemical production programs then you had better believe the US and India are able to also.The argument that AQ Khan was able to acheive something "similar" in the 70s/80s in regards to Pakistan's nuclear weapons is an entirely false equivalence (nuclear bombs =/= nuclear reactors) and anyway I think we can all fairly assume non-proliferation efforts have come a LONG way in the past 30 years and it is not only governments that watch these things closely but independant monitoring groups.

If I was a Pakistani it would take a lot more than simply "take my word for it" these things are happening to be convinced but some are SO desperate to induldge their fantasies. It is frankly an insult to our intelligence that someone, no matter how senior they may be on PDF, are expecting us to buy this nonsense.

@PARIKRAMA @Levina @nair @SpArK @R!CK @randomradio @Vergennes @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @Levina @ayesha.a @punit @MilSpec @hellfire @dadeechi @Water Car Engineer @acetophenol @sathya

This is from the most novice in the forum. Doesn't "game theory" dictate that you go to the next rung to keep the "strategic balance"? Isn't China's game plan is to exhaust India's energy and time as much as possible in this corner of the world? If I were a Pakistani I'd have definitely believed that something is being cooked for these "Santa Claus" surprise gifts have been serving Pak well since operation Basstacks....

 

[Abingdonboy]

This is from the most novice in the forum. Doesn't "game theory" dictate that you go to the next rung to keep the "strategic balance"? Isn't China's game plan is to exhaust India's energy and time as much as possible in this corner of the world? If I were a Pakistani I'd have definitely believed that something is being cooked for these "Santa Claus" surprise gifts have been serving Pak well since operation Basstacks....

Just more conjecture and a rehashing of the same tired notion of "strategic balance". There is no such balance and the gap is only growing year by year. Pakistan's compulsion to be India's equal does not make it so.

This is a very specific subject, unless Pakistan has somehow developed the ability to grow nuclear scientists or specialist machinary out of the ground or build test facilities outside the gaze of omnipresent spy sats then the facts do not change.

 

[The SC]

Pakistan Navy's Project S-26/Type 032 Qing-Class & Project S-30/Type 032 Qing-Class Submarines

China’s R & D programme to develop the double-hulled Project S-26/Type 032 Qing-class and Project S-30/Type 032 Qing-class SSK submarines—all to be powered by China-developed Stirling Engine air-independent propulsion systems—was begun in January 2005.


The first and only S-26 was launched at Wuchang Shipyard in Wuhan in September 2010, and it completed its harbour-trials by September 2012. Its sea-trials commenced on October 16, 2012 in the Bohai Sea. The S-26 has a length of 92.6 metres, width of 10 metres, hydroplane width of 13 metres and a height of 17.2 metres. It has a draught of 6.85 metres when surfaced with a displacement of 3,797 tons. It operates at a submerged depth of 160 metres, but can dive as deep as 200 metres. Maximum surfaced speed is 10 Knots and maximum submerged speed is 14 Knots. It can operate with a crew of 88 for 30 days without resupply, or 200 crewmen for three days.


The S-30 will have a submerged displacement of 6,628 tons, and will be armed with four vertically-launched Babur long-range land-attack cruise missiles and two submarine-launched ballistic missiles (SLBM), most likely the upgraded JL-1 SLBM. Construction of the first S-30 is presently underway at Wuhan. Deliveries, however, will not commence until 2020 at best.

The S-26 and S-30 submarines are being developed by China solely for the Pakistan Navy, and they will not enter service with the PLA Navy. The Pakistan Navy will procure four S-26s and four S-30s. China will also supply Pakistan with a submarine rebuild centre (SRC) that will be located at Ormara, and a VLF communications facility that will be located at Turbat. Deliveries of the S-26 submarines will begin by 2017.

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.ca/2015/04/pakistan-navys-project-s-26type-032.html

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Just more conjecture and a rehashing of the same tired notion of "strategic balance". There is no such balance and the gap is only growing year by year. Pakistan's compulsion to be India's equal does not make it so.

This is a very specific subject, unless Pakistan has somehow developed the ability to grow nuclear scientists or specialist machinary out of the ground or build test facilities outside the gaze of omnipresent spy sats then the facts do not change.

Then why doesn't India attack Pak??

 

[amardeep mishra]

You DONT!
You do not HIDE a land based prototype of a naval reactor but you use misinform people about its purpose and quietly and silently keep working on it. Do you really think you know about the exact number of reactors operational in Pakistan at various locations? Labs and defense industry? EVERYTHING included?

I will drop a hint, theoretically speaking, it usually goes hand in hand with a full large scale nuclear reactor at some power facility!! OR a a lab//research institute!!

Just saying how it is done, not how we are DOING. Do keep the difference in mind before jumping into an other argument for the sake of it.

Hi dear @Arsalan
Thanks for taking time to reply the comment. I would like to point out couple of things here and those are-
if there was indeed a nuclear reactor under design and development in pakistan as you'd like me believe--the whole world would have known by now.Normally reactors like these are erected in the compounds adjoining exisiting nuclear power plants. These kind of naval prototypes also require huge building along with specific infrastructure that can be easily picked up by satellites--to your surprise,india gets live feed of what happens on the other side of the border every after 15mins--thanks to various low earth satellites.In fact ISRO have plans to inject a observation/spy sat operating in optical band in Geo stationary orbit that will render sub 50m resolution--kindly note geo sat spy sats have normally lower resolution because of the distance they are from earth! This will enable india to have constant watch over her adversaries 24x7!Now existence of any naval reactor would most likely mean "expansion" of any existing nuclear plant in pakistan. And I am sure every reactor core is accounted for!
Since pakistan doesnt have established forging facilities to forge reactor pressure vessel,pressurizers etc--she'd have to outsource all of these to either china or some place else. Any such transactions are keenly watched over by intelligence agencies.
Let me tell you that I have got my batch mates working on both civillian nuclear reactor as well as naval reactors designed by IGCAR/BARC. Our naval prototype became operational sometimes towards the mid 2000s at IGCAR facility kalpakkam--hardly 70kms from where I am right now-IIT madras!

 

[Abingdonboy]

Then why doesn't India attack Pak??

Why would India want to do that?India is a status quo seeking nation. India has never started a war with Pakistan, it simply isn't interested in expanding its territory, it has its hands full focusing on developing itself.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Hi dear @Arsalan
Thanks for taking time to reply the comment. I would like to point out couple of things here and those are-
if there was indeed a nuclear reactor under design and development in pakistan as you'd like me believe--the whole world would have known by now.Normally reactors like these are erected in the compounds adjoining exisiting nuclear power plants. These kind of naval prototypes also require huge building along with specific infrastructure that can be easily picked up by satellites--to your surprise,india gets live feed of what happens on the other side of the border every after 15mins--thanks to various low earth satellites.In fact ISRO have plans to inject a observation/spy sat operating in optical band in Geo stationary orbit that will render sub 50m resolution--kindly note geo sat spy sats have normally lower resolution because of the distance they are from earth! This will enable india to have constant watch over her adversaries 24x7!Now existence of any naval reactor would most likely mean "expansion" of any existing nuclear plant in pakistan. And I am sure every reactor core is accounted for!
Since pakistan doesnt have established forging facilities to forge reactor pressure vessel,pressurizers etc--she'd have to outsource all of these to either china or some place else. Any such transactions are keenly watched over by intelligence agencies.
Let me tell you that I have got my batch mates working on both civillian nuclear reactor as well as naval reactors designed by IGCAR/BARC. Our naval prototype became operational sometimes towards the mid 2000s at IGCAR facility kalpakkam--hardly 70kms from where I am right now-IIT madras!

Which agency has the guts to ask China about her activities???

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

You are bang on the money @amardeep mishra, anyone seriously suggesting that Pakistan has a working land based miniture naval reactor is either outright lying or out of their minds.

The world watches these developments very, VERY closely. It is not as easy to to conceal such efforts as many here are wrongly assuming, there is a very strict control on the very specific equipment needed to operationlise such a facility, not to mention the fact that such an almighty R&D effort WOULD have very distinct signatures.

If Israel is able to track the developments of Iran/Iraq/Syria's nuclear/chemical production programs then you had better believe the US and India are able to also.The argument that AQ Khan was able to acheive something "similar" in the 70s/80s in regards to Pakistan's nuclear weapons is an entirely false equivalence (nuclear bombs =/= nuclear reactors) and anyway I think we can all fairly assume non-proliferation efforts have come a LONG way in the past 30 years and it is not only governments that watch these things closely but independant monitoring groups.

If I was a Pakistani it would take a lot more than simply "take my word for it" these things are happening to be convinced but some are SO desperate to induldge their fantasies. It is frankly an insult to our intelligence that someone, no matter how senior they may be on PDF, are expecting us to buy this nonsense.

@PARIKRAMA @Levina @nair @SpArK @R!CK @randomradio @Vergennes @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @Levina @ayesha.a @punit @MilSpec @hellfire @dadeechi @Water Car Engineer @acetophenol @sathya

I chuckled on this one..

Pak built the atomic bomb by early 80s... and nobody knew... even the americans became suspicous in the 90s... about a fukin nuclear bomb.. and not the reactors at Chashma etc...

And here we are talking about a miniature reactor which has been in the works since the early 2000s... and confirmed even by the president of the time..

But anyways... sure we cant develop anything man.. Be happy .. dont rattle your cage too much...

P.S: There are alot of thing members with inside info on this forum know.. yet we dont disclose it... many times we did only after the news pops up incidently...

For example..

@Oscar The guy himself is from the defence industry.. Has been involved directly..

@Bilal Khan 777 Former PAF war vet and also involved...

But hey you are free to believe what you want.. we arent forcing you to trust us now are we?

I knew about the new rifles,production and induction of panters n MLRS ... kept quiet (even today regarding alot of stuff for obvious reasons)... i even knew when the first panters arrived for testing at Arty School,Nowshehra ...back in 2008...
People here do that often.

Apart from the episode when somebody leaked pics of still non acknowledged SAMs on this forum a long time ago. ask Oscar..


Some indians posted pics and news from "Defence News" of what they believed were NASR launchers and their "pads" and whatnot:

..
https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-sets-up-tactical-nuclear-missiles-base.428515/


in reality... well .. Not even close...

 

[amardeep mishra]

Which agency has the guts to ask China about her activities???

Hi my dear @HAKIKAT
Would you mind telling me your particular background in research?if at all you know anything about naval reactors?Thanks in advance!It will save a lot of our time,believe me!

 

[v9s]

You are bang on the money @amardeep mishra, anyone seriously suggesting that Pakistan has a working land based miniture naval reactor is either outright lying or out of their minds.

The world watches these developments very, VERY closely. It is not as easy to to conceal such efforts as many here are wrongly assuming, there is a very strict control on the very specific equipment needed to operationlise such a facility, not to mention the fact that such an almighty R&D effort WOULD have very distinct signatures.

If Israel is able to track the developments of Iran/Iraq/Syria's nuclear/chemical production programs then you had better believe the US and India are able to also.The argument that AQ Khan was able to acheive something "similar" in the 70s/80s in regards to Pakistan's nuclear weapons is an entirely false equivalence (nuclear bombs =/= nuclear reactors) and anyway I think we can all fairly assume non-proliferation efforts have come a LONG way in the past 30 years and it is not only governments that watch these things closely but independant monitoring groups.

If I was a Pakistani it would take a lot more than simply "take my word for it" these things are happening to be convinced but some are SO desperate to induldge their fantasies. It is frankly an insult to our intelligence that someone, no matter how senior they may be on PDF, are expecting us to buy this nonsense.

First of all, Pakistan was not able to keep its nuclear weapon development a secret in the 70s - the relevant people around the world knew what Pakistan was doing.

Secondly, you and Amar-deep seem to think you're important enough that because you haven't heard or read about Pakistan's nuclear reactor miniaturization, it doesn't exist. If there is any, the relevant people know about it - and they aren't losing sleep over the fact that a bunch of Indians doubt its existence.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

First of all, Pakistan was not able to keep its nuclear weapon development a secret in the 70s - the relevant people around the world knew what Pakistan was doing.

Secondly, you and Amar-deep seem to think you're important enough that because you haven't heard or read about Pakistan's nuclear reactor miniaturization, it doesn't exist. If there is any, the relevant people know about it - and they aren't losing sleep over the fact that a bunch of Indians doubt its existence.

Miniature warheads for Nasr ... well everybody knew about that didnt they?

 

[v9s]

if there was indeed a nuclear reactor under design and development in pakistan as you'd like me believe--

Oh please. No one gives a sh!t about what you believe. The only reason people indulge you are because: they're naive and think you provide positive contribution to their knowledge, Indian cheerleaders like Abingdoy, very patient individuals like Arsalan, or posters who just want you to shut up because you're an annoying broken record.

Miniature warheads for Nasr ... well everybody knew about that didnt they?

These dumbasses are so pompous. Unfortunately the internet has a way of stroking one's ego enough to make them think that whatever bullshit they're spewing is the final word.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Oh please. No one gives a sh!t about what you believe. The only reason people indulge you are because: they're naive and think you provide positive contribution to their knowledge, Indian cheerleaders like Abingdoy, very patient individuals like Arsalan, or posters who just want you to shut up because you're an annoying broken record.

Hi dear @v9s
How about you use a language or tone that doesnt reflect your superior technical education? How about you prove me wrong based on very strong credible scientific literature?Believe me,I wouldnt really use the kind of words you use to address some one you barely know!
Or is it too difficult?

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Oh please. No one gives a sh!t about what you believe. The only reason people indulge you are because: they're naive and think you provide positive contribution to their knowledge, Indian cheerleaders like Abingdoy, very patient individuals like Arsalan, or posters who just want you to shut up because you're an annoying broken record.



These dumbasses are so pompous. Unfortunately the internet has a way of stroking one's ego enough to make them think that whatever bullshit they're spewing is the final word.

Thanks for the inklings. Nuclear reactors or not, facing them even in the internet is enough of an adversity...