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Pakistan Navy: The Phoenix Rises

Bullsh*t is the only way to describe this. Pure bullsh*t.

Non-nuclear submarine, i.e. DE, AIP or electric drive are quiet, small, maneuverable, but deadly and packed with advanced sensors that give them more then enough capability to asset threats - in any domain - and take the appropriate actions.

Take our Ula class - with the highest availability rate in Europe, a range of greater then 10,000nmi and a max speed underwater of +25nmi. The boats are also known as Type 210:

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It's a fight between Sweden's Gotland and Norway's Ula for the quietest submarine on the continent. They have long legs, can cruise at speeds any nuke boat can, are fully capable of operating in vast ocean waters, despite being classified as an SSC, and if you think they or similar designs like Type 209/212, Gotland, Kilo or any other conventional submarine design is an "easy kill" then you are poorly mistaken.

Fortunately military leaders don't have the same bravado and take the threat very seriously.
thanks for explaining and contradicting much better way

the diesel subs for example are far more quieter thus stealthier than nuclear subs (this is something NATO complains about new breed of Russian and Chinese Subs)

i cant add any more than you did already thanks \again for your contribution
 
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good report but the actual reality is not as rosy as depicted.

the Type-21 FFGs purchased 2nd hand from the UK are a liability now as they are costing a pretty penny to maintain and operate. they were going to be replaced by 6 Perry class FFGs donated by the US as EDA but only 1 has been transferred with an 80mill$ upgrade and for all intent and purposes it is not more than a training ship.

The 4 F-22 Sword class FFGs purchased new from China are a good addition to the surface fleet but these ships are beset by safety issues which are being overcome locally by the navy. having said that further purchases of the type are not forthcoming due to the reluctance of the navy planners citing these safety issues. a newer more advanced version of the FFG designated F-23 in some circles is on the cards but as of now there is no further news on this front.

The Submarine squadrons remains the cutting edge of the navy but here too the navy is operating with less than the required allocation of boats (11) and is dependent on the 3 Agosta90B boats equipped with AIP and 2 80s era Agosta 70 boats which went through a major overhaul to extend their service life but these were supposed to be withdrawn from service starting 2012 after the failed induction of the German subs and the subsequent delay in the procurement of 6-8 Chinese S-20 submarines with AIP. as of today, work has not started on the building of these submarines either in Chinese shipbuilding yards or locally. recently it was disclosed that this type would be inducted in the navy starting 2022-23, 6 years from now.

The navy has strengthened its numbers in the area of costal / maritime defense and surveillance by ordering up to 6-8 Azmat class Chinese built FACs and is in the process of upgrading the MSA by purchasing 4 600T OPVs and 2 1500T corvettes(?) to stem the illegal trafficking of drugs, immigrants and gun running. here too the US has blocked the purchase of 8 GR3, hence forcing the navy to turn to its trusted supplier the Chinese.

The Naval Air Arm has not seen any major purchases except for the purchase of 3 2nd hand ATR72 transports which will be upgraded as MSA / transport aircraft to replace the ageing F-27 Fokker's in service.

The 6 Seaking ASWs hellos continue to soldier on with the navy having been upgraded recently. replacement of this type must be on the cards and a possible purchase of Leonardo's Type AW139 ASW/SAR seems to be a strong possibility having recently secured an order of 6-8 AW139s for the Army and Air force.

The 6 Z9ec light ASW helos purchased from china have been a good addition to the naval air arm. further inductions are dependent on the purchase of FFGs.

The surviving 6 P3C PUP aircraft continue to operate with the navy for some time to come. attrition replacement of the 2 aircraft lost in the militant attack at Drigh road NAS were rebuffed by the US.

Overall the navy is certainly in much better state of preparedness as compared to 1971 but the procurement of the planned surface vessels and submarines must be speeded up if the navy has to effectively defend its much larger EEZ and its bases along the Makran coast.


You can also add the two Turkish missel boats MRTP-33- Karrar (ship number 03 and 04), Pakistan made three Jalalat (ship number 1028, 1029 and 1030 )class 1 and two Jalalat class 2 boats (named PNS JURRAT 1023 and PNS QUWWAT 1028 ). 2+ 3+ 2= 7 + 4 Azmat = 11
 
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naval gap b/w indo-pak is vast
we need to add more frigates
still PN have no visible plan in this regard
 
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Are you guys willing to sell these subs to Pakistan?

The Ula Class design is sound, in fact an updated variant based on the existing Ula hull will replace the class, but these boats are approaching 30 years of age and have already undergone mid-life extensions, so there's not much more mileage that can be milked from them. They will be replaced by 2020.

The age of the hulls makes them unattractive, but they've also got a great deal of German and American knowhow in them - as the hulls are German (socalled Type 210) and the fire control systems are American - so that also makes them unattractive from a Pakistani point of view were a diversification away from American equipment is currently preferred when it's an option.

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They are more likely to be scrapped then sold. However their predecessor the Kobben Class (Type 207) was transferred to both Poland and Denmark following their service with the Royal Norwegian navy, so it's not an outside possibility, it's just unlikely given the limited defense relations between Pakistan and Norway.

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The Ula's are old, and have been regularly upgraded, but don't mistake that as them being neutered. They're still among the best conventional submarines in Europe today.

I just don't see them being an option for Pakistan give our two nations limited defense relations and the age of the boats.
 
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good report but the actual reality is not as rosy as depicted.

the Type-21 FFGs purchased 2nd hand from the UK are a liability now as they are costing a pretty penny to maintain and operate. they were going to be replaced by 6 Perry class FFGs donated by the US as EDA but only 1 has been transferred with an 80mill$ upgrade and for all intent and purposes it is not more than a training ship.

The 4 F-22 Sword class FFGs purchased new from China are a good addition to the surface fleet but these ships are beset by safety issues which are being overcome locally by the navy. having said that further purchases of the type are not forthcoming due to the reluctance of the navy planners citing these safety issues. a newer more advanced version of the FFG designated F-23 in some circles is on the cards but as of now there is no further news on this front.

The Submarine squadrons remains the cutting edge of the navy but here too the navy is operating with less than the required allocation of boats (11) and is dependent on the 3 Agosta90B boats equipped with AIP and 2 80s era Agosta 70 boats which went through a major overhaul to extend their service life but these were supposed to be withdrawn from service starting 2012 after the failed induction of the German subs and the subsequent delay in the procurement of 6-8 Chinese S-20 submarines with AIP. as of today, work has not started on the building of these submarines either in Chinese shipbuilding yards or locally. recently it was disclosed that this type would be inducted in the navy starting 2022-23, 6 years from now.

The navy has strengthened its numbers in the area of costal / maritime defense and surveillance by ordering up to 6-8 Azmat class Chinese built FACs and is in the process of upgrading the MSA by purchasing 4 600T OPVs and 2 1500T corvettes(?) to stem the illegal trafficking of drugs, immigrants and gun running. here too the US has blocked the purchase of 8 GR3, hence forcing the navy to turn to its trusted supplier the Chinese.

The Naval Air Arm has not seen any major purchases except for the purchase of 3 2nd hand ATR72 transports which will be upgraded as MSA / transport aircraft to replace the ageing F-27 Fokker's in service.

The 6 Seaking ASWs hellos continue to soldier on with the navy having been upgraded recently. replacement of this type must be on the cards and a possible purchase of Leonardo's Type AW139 ASW/SAR seems to be a strong possibility having recently secured an order of 6-8 AW139s for the Army and Air force.

The 6 Z9ec light ASW helos purchased from china have been a good addition to the naval air arm. further inductions are dependent on the purchase of FFGs.

The surviving 6 P3C PUP aircraft continue to operate with the navy for some time to come. attrition replacement of the 2 aircraft lost in the militant attack at Drigh road NAS were rebuffed by the US.

Overall the navy is certainly in much better state of preparedness as compared to 1971 but the procurement of the planned surface vessels and submarines must be speeded up if the navy has to effectively defend its much larger EEZ and its bases along the Makran coast.


What kind of safety issues F-22P facing ?
 
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That same aircraft carrier would become a problem for the enemy to protect from our aerial and sub surface attacks. Imagine the blow to their moral and ego when we hit that elephant.


aircraft carriers are for power projection our enemy is right on our doorstep why would we need one and our navy can get air cover from from our costal air bases



What do you mean by "peaceful country my foot"?
are you suggesting that we are waging war at any country, or engaged in supporting terrorism in any neighbouring country?
We have good relations with all the neighbours except india off course, and we resolve our issues, if any peacefully when did we threaten any neighbouring country.

Peaceful does not mean coward or not willing to fight if push comes to shove. We just showed that to the Indians in no non-sense terms to blow the air out of their delusional balloons. What we need is an adequate surface fleet with a strong offensive sub surface capability doubling as second strike capability. The most important thing is we need a very strong air force specially now to counter Rafael threat. The only thing keeping india from aggression was F-16 factor, with Rafael induction in IAF that would be neutralized to a great extent unless we can double our F-16 numbers or induct a better platform in significant (2-3 squadrons) numbers.


Peaceful country my foot. This peaceful country thing only make sures that you end up dead. Specially in case of Pakistan not only because of your location but also because you are a Muslim country and a nuclear power. We need much bigger Navy and need to go for global role for that too happen at least 24 to 30 major Ships are required equipped with VLS to fire cruise missiles. Also need bigger Marine Force






Why do you have to poke your nose in every Pakistani discussion thread with your "I know it all" attitude with definite declarations about what programs Pakistan does not have? Regardless of what you know and what your friends know, you know nothing about our top secret programs. Stop behaving like jackass here.


Hi dear @Oscar
Except the para I have quoted above,rest everything seems fine however if we note carefully,there are a lot of "ifs" and "buts" or in short speculations,there is nothing definite in what you have mentioned above. I happen to know a couple of things pertaining to nuclear plants as I have couple of my batch mates in BARC reactor divison--(kindly note BARC has various type of reactor projects going on from PHWR,LWR to fast breeder reactors and now recently AHWRs as well). Designing your own reactor is one thing and miniaturizing it and making it sea worthy is QUITE ANOTHER! Lets be brutally honest,and instead of living in fancies and drooling over some un-substantiated reports,lets for now focus on facts at hand--pakistan hasnt really designed her own nuclear power plant for generating "energy". Pakistan has couple of plutonium and experimental neutron reactors whose origin is pretty much unknown given the scarcity of published literature.
First step in design of a nuclear submarine is mastering the power plant--there is no short cut--you have to master the design. The reactor needs to be validated in simulations which paves the way for the construction of a land based prototype.The data gathered over years of running the land based replica of your submarine reactor gives enough confidence in design and only then is reactor finally engineered into the submarine hull-- this whole process takes at least a decade or more!Pakistan has no land based prototype running that might indicate the possibility of a nuclear submarine reactor being seriously pursued by PN.
I will briefly highlight some of the challenges associated with design of sea going reactors--these are in indian context as discussed in various open seminars and lectures--kindly note it is equally true in the context of pakistan!
1)First to design a sea going reactor(light water moderated as against heavy water moderated)--one would need to establish reactor physics and required metallurgy in the country.Light water reactors traditionally occupy lesser space and are relatively straight forward in design. The down-side though is ,they require slightly higher degree of enrichment vis-a-vis PHWRs that consume natural uranium. In case of submarine reactors though,the enrichment level is way more high than a land based LWR designed for commercial purposes. Higher the enrichment--longer will the endurance of the sub.

2)In case of land based LWRs the power is generally gradually increased to full capacity however in subs the requirement is such that reactor might have to be reved upto full power setting in a very short span of time--for instance during initial accelerations or running away from enemies. This might seem easy at first glance but requires extensive modifications in the design to enable fast building up of power

3)Submarine reactor should be able to withstand shocks and lateral forces that might result from an explosion etc.It is speculated that the reactor core of Oscar-2 class russian SSGN could withstand a g force of 50!

4)To construct the reactor,country must have established FORGING capabilities to forge reactor pressure vessel,pressurizers,turbines,allied control systems etc etc.

Submarine is just the platform and that is useless without itz primary armament.Pakistan would have to design her own SLBMs and master the cold launch philosophy.Again,pakistan doesnt have a SLBM program going on right now. It takes decades to design and field a reliable SLBM--it is not as easy as lets say land based missiles. Your designers would run into same kind of problems, Indian designers ran into almost 10 years back and those were related to a lot of issues ranging from lowering the weight by using composites,complexities in cold launch to storing liquid fuel for RCS(REACTION CONTROL SYSTEM).
And lastly the r&d cost of a nuclear submarine exceeds $3bn--kindly Note it doesn't include the cost of establishing a production line or whole lot of nuclear engineering and support faculties at the harbour. After spending billions of dollars into nuclear submarine program India has only one yard capable of supporting nuclear submarine or has the requisite nuclear engineering set up.How do you think Pakistan would deal with this particular issue?I don't think there is any yard in Pakistan that has technical know how to support or construct a nuclear submarine.
On a serious note, does Pakistan have a under water pontoon from which to launch the experimental SLBM ?
 
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That same aircraft carrier would become a problem for the enemy to protect from our aerial and sub surface attacks. Imagine the blow to their moral and ego when we hit that elephant.




What do you mean by "peaceful country my foot"?
are you suggesting that we are waging war at any country, or engaged in supporting terrorism in any neighbouring country?
We have good relations with all the neighbours except india off course, and we resolve our issues, if any peacefully when did we threaten any neighbouring country.

Peaceful does not mean coward or not willing to fight if push comes to shove. We just showed that to the Indians in no non-sense terms to blow the air out of their delusional balloons. What we need is an adequate surface fleet with a strong offensive sub surface capability doubling as second strike capability. The most important thing is we need a very strong air force specially now to counter Rafael threat. The only thing keeping india from aggression was F-16 factor, with Rafael induction in IAF that would be neutralized to a great extent unless we can double our F-16 numbers or induct a better platform in significant (2-3 squadrons) numbers.




Why do you have to poke your nose in every Pakistani discussion thread with your "I know it all" attitude with definite declarations about what programs Pakistan does not have? Regardless of what you know and what your friends know, you know nothing about our top secret programs. Stop behaving like jackass here.

Well I poke my nose because I am Pakistani and concerned about defence of my country and Muslims. Secondly if you are trying to sell me that 12 Frigates and 14 Submarines would be enough to defend against Indian Navy with 100 major ships and 25 to 30 Submarines also P8 Jets and Attack Fighter Air Crafts than I am not going to buy this because this is impossible. Yes we should start war first if we think it's in our best interest. I consider this insult to Pakistan and its soldiers that if they think that war should be started they are asked to remain peaceful. Than finish the Army for that. Remaining peaceful no matter how good it sounds is not always wise you have to strike first many times before your enemy strikes. So what I want is Navy to be far better equipped and much bigger Navy if we want to defend our selves against massively growing Indian Navy.
 
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LOL .... that "poke" section was directed at the indian.

And take a healthy dose of cool aid and a second time reading helps in comprehending the message better.




Well I poke my nose because I am Pakistani and concerned about defence of my country and Muslims. Secondly if you are trying to sell me that 12 Frigates and 14 Submarines would be enough to defend against Indian Navy with 100 major ships and 25 to 30 Submarines also P8 Jets and Attack Fighter Air Crafts than I am not going to buy this because this is impossible. Yes we should start war first if we think it's in our best interest. I consider this insult to Pakistan and its soldiers that if they think that war should be started they are asked to remain peaceful. Than finish the Army for that. Remaining peaceful no matter how good it sounds is not always wise you have to strike first many times before your enemy strikes. So what I want is Navy to be far better equipped and much bigger Navy if we want to defend our selves against massively growing Indian Navy.
 
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We are working ICBM and they are more than one. I am 200 % certain about it as for Navy sooner or little later we would go for large Frigates and Destroyers equipped with VLS to fire long range cruise and ballistic missiles along with Air Defence. You can't fight Indian Navy which in next 10 years will have around 100 Major Ships from corvettes to Destroyers with only 12 Frigate Navy of Pakistan
Best response is more Submarines, maybe between 20 and 30 or more still..from coastal midgets of 600 tons to nuclear powered ones.. this will be a nightmare for Pakistan enemies, even if they have 300 war ships, they will get paranoid and will think a lot before taking any action..

The reactor is the first step; that is all I would like to add.


I don't express anything until I am dead sure, and this I intend for our fb page so double checked or triple checked info.

All nuclear subs require that their power plant be developed first.

Budget and usual "nagihanu aafatien" being avoided, most of these thingd should see completion.
Pakistan was already working on the nuclear propulsion system in Musharaf's days.. don't know if they might implement it in 2 new subs (Yuan 39A/B) when they will be built in Pakistan..
Don't know why people are taking about S-20.. the Submarines Pakistan is getting are 500 million $ each, 4 billion$ for 8, that is in par with the cost of German Type 214 and with ToT on top of it..
 
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A very good write up.

Just my 2 cents on helicopter operations. Now that PN has 12 Z9C, a sub 5 ton multirole , why not order more and replace the SA319B fully ? Both come under the " Naval Light Weight Utility " category, and having a common platform has its own benefits.

Also the true replacement in terms of capability of SeaKing can only be an equivalent one. Like AW101 or EC725 or NHI NH90. A squadron (6-8) of them is no so costly.
 
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Best response is more Submarines, maybe between 20 and 30 or more still..from coastal midgets of 600 tons to nuclear powered ones.. this will be a nightmare for Pakistan enemies, even if they have 300 war ships, they will get paranoid and will think a lot before taking any action..


Pakistan was already working on the nuclear propulsion system in Musharaf's days.. don't know if they might implement it in 2 new subs (Yuan 39A/B) when they will be built in Pakistan..
Don't know why people are taking about S-20.. the Submarines Pakistan is getting are 500 million $ each, 4 billion$ for 8, that is in par with the cost of German Type 214 and with ToT on top of it..
Bro problem is they also have submarines and are going for lot more not to mention they are going for corvettes which have major Anti Submarine Capability along with P8 and other Anti Submarine Jets and helicopters. So we need combination of VLS equipped Destroyers and Frigates for long range cruise missile strikes and also Submarines both nuclear and AIP and Fighter and Anti Submarine Jets and helicopters
 
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Just my 2 cents on helicopter operations. Now that PN has 12 Z9C, a sub 5 ton multirole , why not order more and replace the SA319B fully ? Both come under the " Naval Light Weight Utility " category, and having a common platform has its own benefits
Z9-EC is Ant-Submarine Helicopter while SA-319B is Naval Utility Helicopter. You are right about replacing SA-319B but with a better suited replacement rather then a Specialized Anti-Submarine Warfare chopper..
 
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Z9-EC is Ant-Submarine Helicopter while SA-319B is Naval Utility Helicopter. You are right about replacing SA-319B but with a better suited replacement rather then a Specialized Anti-Submarine Warfare chopper..

The Z9C, as far as I understand is the derivation of the Dauphin series of French helicopters from China. And the Chinese did also produce an SAR variant of it.
 
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