Pakistan Navy: The Phoenix Rises

[SQ8]

Best response is more Submarines, maybe between 20 and 30 or more still..from coastal midgets of 600 tons to nuclear powered ones.. this will be a nightmare for Pakistan enemies, even if they have 300 war ships, they will get paranoid and will think a lot before taking any action..


Pakistan was already working on the nuclear propulsion system in Musharaf's days.. don't know if they might implement it in 2 new subs (Yuan 39A/B) when they will be built in Pakistan..
Don't know why people are taking about S-20.. the Submarines Pakistan is getting are 500 million $ each, 4 billion$ for 8, that is in par with the cost of German Type 214 and with ToT on top of it..

The S-20 is the moniker that stuck, although everyone except the PN calls them that; to the PN they are modified Yuan.

And the reactor is not meant for them, not the 8 coming anyway.

 

[Fenrir]

You are right about replacing SA-319B but with a better suited replacement rather then a Specialized Anti-Submarine Warfare chopper..

European options make for great, but expensive airframes. Quality = cost. But it's hard to find better airframes on the market today.

We recently started replacing our Sea Kings as well, partially with the AW101:

Partially with the NH90:

Both are multi-mission platforms, and so long as Pakistan can front the cost, options available to it as European nations don't have reservations selling Pakistan helicopters of these types.

I served on both Sea Kings and the NH90, absolutely loved the NH90 and would recommend it at every chance I get.

*If you're wondering what I did, this was it;

Maritime SAR.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Why do you have to poke your nose in every Pakistani discussion thread with your "I know it all" attitude with definite declarations about what programs Pakistan does not have? Regardless of what you know and what your friends know, you know nothing about our top secret programs. Stop behaving like jackass here.

Hi dear @ConcealCarry
Again,instead of using a language that aptly describe your academic qualifications why don't you try to back your claim with something substantial or something that involves published literature?
Oh I'm waiting!

 

[SQ8]

Hi dear @Oscar
Except the para I have quoted above,rest everything seems fine however if we note carefully,there are a lot of "ifs" and "buts" or in short speculations,there is nothing definite in what you have mentioned above. I happen to know a couple of things pertaining to nuclear plants as I have couple of my batch mates in BARC reactor divison--(kindly note BARC has various type of reactor projects going on from PHWR,LWR to fast breeder reactors and now recently AHWRs as well). Designing your own reactor is one thing and miniaturizing it and making it sea worthy is QUITE ANOTHER! Lets be brutally honest,and instead of living in fancies and drooling over some un-substantiated reports,lets for now focus on facts at hand--pakistan hasnt really designed her own nuclear power plant for generating "energy". Pakistan has couple of plutonium and experimental neutron reactors whose origin is pretty much unknown given the scarcity of published literature.
First step in design of a nuclear submarine is mastering the power plant--there is no short cut--you have to master the design. The reactor needs to be validated in simulations which paves the way for the construction of a land based prototype.The data gathered over years of running the land based replica of your submarine reactor gives enough confidence in design and only then is reactor finally engineered into the submarine hull-- this whole process takes at least a decade or more!Pakistan has no land based prototype running that might indicate the possibility of a nuclear submarine reactor being seriously pursued by PN.
I will briefly highlight some of the challenges associated with design of sea going reactors--these are in indian context as discussed in various open seminars and lectures--kindly note it is equally true in the context of pakistan!
1)First to design a sea going reactor(light water moderated as against heavy water moderated)--one would need to establish reactor physics and required metallurgy in the country.Light water reactors traditionally occupy lesser space and are relatively straight forward in design. The down-side though is ,they require slightly higher degree of enrichment vis-a-vis PHWRs that consume natural uranium. In case of submarine reactors though,the enrichment level is way more high than a land based LWR designed for commercial purposes. Higher the enrichment--longer will the endurance of the sub.

2)In case of land based LWRs the power is generally gradually increased to full capacity however in subs the requirement is such that reactor might have to be reved upto full power setting in a very short span of time--for instance during initial accelerations or running away from enemies. This might seem easy at first glance but requires extensive modifications in the design to enable fast building up of power

3)Submarine reactor should be able to withstand shocks and lateral forces that might result from an explosion etc.It is speculated that the reactor core of Oscar-2 class russian SSGN could withstand a g force of 50!

4)To construct the reactor,country must have established FORGING capabilities to forge reactor pressure vessel,pressurizers,turbines,allied control systems etc etc.

Submarine is just the platform and that is useless without itz primary armament.Pakistan would have to design her own SLBMs and master the cold launch philosophy.Again,pakistan doesnt have a SLBM program going on right now. It takes decades to design and field a reliable SLBM--it is not as easy as lets say land based missiles. Your designers would run into same kind of problems, Indian designers ran into almost 10 years back and those were related to a lot of issues ranging from lowering the weight by using composites,complexities in cold launch to storing liquid fuel for RCS(REACTION CONTROL SYSTEM).
And lastly the r&d cost of a nuclear submarine exceeds $3bn--kindly Note it doesn't include the cost of establishing a production line or whole lot of nuclear engineering and support faculties at the harbour. After spending billions of dollars into nuclear submarine program India has only one yard capable of supporting nuclear submarine or has the requisite nuclear engineering set up.How do you think Pakistan would deal with this particular issue?I don't think there is any yard in Pakistan that has technical know how to support or construct a nuclear submarine.
On a serious note, does Pakistan have a under water pontoon from which to launch the experimental SLBM ?

Nobody is shoving anything down your throat. You dont HAVE to agree and I can agree to not accept your narrative.
That is all I have to say on this matter.

 

[Cornered Tiger]

The Z9C, as far as I understand is the derivation of the Dauphin series of French helicopters from China. And the Chinese did also produce an SAR variant of it.

You are right in Z9-C sense, but not definitely with Z9-EC which is Specially built for Anti-Submarine warfare..

 

[The SC]

Bro problem is they also have submarines and are going for lot more not to mention they are going for corvettes which have major Anti Submarine Capability along with P8 and other Anti Submarine Jets and helicopters. So we need combination of VLS equipped Destroyers and Frigates for long range cruise missile strikes and also Submarines both nuclear and AIP and Fighter and Anti Submarine Jets and helicopters

I do agree with you, still how many submarines will they be able to commit to one front? That is where Pakistan wins, it has most of its subs for defense and a few for offense..

 

[Cornered Tiger]

European options make for great, but expensive airframes. Quality = cost.

We recently started replaced our Sea Kings as well, partially with the AW101:

Partially with the NH90:

Both are multi-mission platforms, and so long as Pakistan can front the cost, options available to it as European nations don't have reservations selling Pakistan helicopters of these types.

I served on both Sea Kings and the NH90, absolutely loved the NH90 and would recommend it at every chance I get.

*If you're wondering what I did, this was it;

Maritime SAR.

Who does not want to get hands on European one, but such a nasty price tag is issue... We have lot many things to replace, not only choppers, that is the main issue, we have to divide the available resources among priorities...

 

[The SC]

The S-20 is the moniker that stuck, although everyone except the PN calls them that; to the PN they are modified Yuan.

And the reactor is not meant for them, not the 8 coming anyway.

Hope Pakistan will get 2 Nuclear submarines, one 6000 tons Hunter Killer and nuclear cruise carrying and one bigger ballistic missiles carrying, both with the new Chinese silent propellers.

Was thinking about the Yuan-32 test bed of 6 thousand tons...

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

You are right in Z9-C sense, but not definitely with Z9-EC which is Specially built for Anti-Submarine warfare..

Well the French are offering us the same Panther MBe version which they say meets our criteria for SAR , Transport, ASuW and ASW operations.

As I see that the " Z9C" of PLAN is the licence built variant of Panther , I see little to no problems while using the Z9C for all operations , and Z9EC is derived from the same.

The PLAN use the same Z9C with ASW capability in SAR and other operations too.

Personally I don't see any problems in adopting the Z9EC into ASW, Transport and SAR roles all.

However I stand to be corrected in case EC version is purely ASW version like our Ka28s.

Hope Pakistan will get 2 Nuclear submarines, one 600 tons Hunter Killer and nuclear cruse carrying and one bigger ballistic missiles carrying,both with the new Chinese silent propellers..

6000 Tons.

Chinese are working on pump jet propulsion too , why not that?

 

[Fenrir]

Hope Pakistan will get 2 Nuclear submarines, one 600 tons Hunter Killer and nuclear cruse carrying and one bigger ballistic missiles carrying,both with the new Chinese silent propellers..

600 ton nuclear submarine? I think you missed a zero.

The world's smallest nuclear submarine is the American NR-1 at 400 tons. It's unarmed:

An early Skate class, based on Nautilus, weighed in at almost 2500 tons:

Something in the class of Skipjack or Sturgeon would be about 3000-4000 tons:

While an LA equivalent (might be stretching the capabilities of a first submarine, honestly) would weight in at around 6000 tons, so I think you probably missed a zero:

 

[The SC]

Hope Pakistan will get 2 Nuclear submarines, one 600 tons Hunter Killer and nuclear cruse carrying and one bigger ballistic missiles carrying,both with the new Chinese silent propellers..

600 ton nuclear submarine? I think you missed a zero.

The world's smallest nuclear submarine is the American NR-1 at 400 tons. It's unarmed:

Yes I meant 6000 tons..thanks 600 tons can't carry cruise missiles anyways, I was not thinking about a midget nuclear powered sub, more about something in line with the American Nautilus
I have seen that one unmanned!

 

[Cornered Tiger]

Well the French are offering us the same Panther MBe version which they say meets our criteria for SAR , Transport, ASuW and ASW operations.

As I see that the " Z9C" of PLAN is the licence built variant of Panther , I see little to no problems while using the Z9C for all operations , and Z9EC is derived from the same.

The PLAN use the same Z9C with ASW capability in SAR and other operations too.

Personally I don't see any problems in adopting the Z9EC into ASW, Transport and SAR roles all.

However I stand to be corrected in case EC version is purely ASW version like our Ka28s.

6000 Tons.

Chinese are working on pump jet propulsion too , why not that?

In order to give multi-role capabilities to Z9-EC we have to give more power, more payload capacity, etc to the platform which will lead to many modifications in airframe as well, OR we can compromise on Anti-Sub capability. The best solution is to replace them with same kinda role chopper, It could be a different variant of the very same discussed above. so we have no need to do something to Z9-EC fleet. They are good...

 

[Zarvan]

I do agree with you, still how many submarines will they be able to commit to one front? That is where Pakistan wins, it has most of its subs for defense and a few for offense..

They don't have enemy on the other side. China will have to bring their entire Navy to keep India busy no other country would or can do it. Depending only on China is not good we need much bigger Navy

 

[The SC]

They don't have enemy on the other side. China will have to bring their entire Navy to keep India busy no other country would or can do it. Depending only on China is not good we need much bigger Navy

Not depending on China.. I didn't refer to that.. India can not bring all its subs up, its navy will be naked all over the place and neither can it bring all its vessels.. if they hear of one or two Pakistani subs roaming around in the Indian ocean, they will dedicate too much assets to at least keep track of them and their navy's biggest vessels will be paralyzed till they know -if ever- where these subs are or their whereabouts, which is unlikely to happen with the very silent and stealthy AIP subs..

 

[Zarvan]

Not depending on China.. I didn't refer to that.. India can not bring all its subs up, its navy will be naked all over the place and neither can it bring all its vessels.. if they hear of one or two Pakistani subs roaming around in the Indian ocean, they will dedicate too much assets to at least keep track of them and their navy;s biggest vessels will be paralyzed till they know -if ever= where these subs are or their whereabouts, which is unlikely to happen with the very silent and stealthy AIP subs..

With 100 major Ships they easily can bring 70 % of them they have friends like Vietnam and others so using fleet of that area won't be an issue for India