Pakistan Navy Submarines: A Silent Force to Reckon with!

[Contrarian]

The difference in the Naval fleets will start showing 2017 onwards when the new Shipyards and the existing ones will be completely modernized. Right now IN is short of shipyards to order their ships and this will continue till 2014.

 

[IceCold]

I appreciate your knowledge Growler and the fact that you are one of the senior members of this forum. However the fact remains that all the above mentioned deals for the IN have already been signed / or are indigenous programs except for the Project 975b subs for which an RFP has been issued. When Pakistan does sign these deals and work starts on these platforms, can we consider them as being part of the future PN fleet.

Please correct me if I'm misinformed of the following news:

1) 3 Agosta 90b subs are already in service, with the third having been fitted with the AIP system and the other would be fitted with them as well during their next refit. What is Scorpene systems on a Agosta 90b?

2) The PN as of now has 4 P3C Orion Aircraft with an intended purchase of 6 more which has not yet been decided. Brings the total to 10 if bought.

3) According to Janes the Pakistan Navy placed a formal request to the U.S. for six Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates to augment its surface fleet. These may replace the Type-21s,due to retire between 2010-20, and act as stop-gaps until new-built frigates and corvettes are commissioned. In September 2008 the US Congress approved selling the USS McInerney (FFG-8) to Pakistan with a delivery date of August 2010. No specific dates or approvals have been given for the delivery of the other ships. Also please keep in mind that they are 35 year old ships and only limited upgrades are being performed on them.However there is no doubt of its capabilities.

4) The 4 Stealth Corvettes you are referring to is probably the F22. The first has arrived in Pakistan and the rest are on schedule. There is enough discussion on this subject in its thread. Have already mentioned in my earlier post the the PN is acquiring these.

5) The 3 new Stealth Frigates you are referring to? News is as follows- "According to Janes' IDEAS2004 interview with former Pakistan Navy Chief ex-Admiral Karimullah at least four additional new-built frigates will be acquired by the navy. The new frigate will be larger and superior to the F-22P; it will likely have a better air defence system and anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capability; and use more advanced sensors, radar and electronics. Kanwa recently reported that the Pakistan Navy has shown recent interest in the Chinese Type 054A frigate. Another potential option could be the TKMS MEKO A-200 frigate." This itself is unconfirmed news and no orders/ RFI's etc have been issued.

I'm not saying that the PN is weak or inefficient. My response was directed at the post:

MZUBAIR
"We wish too, but its India who have to initiate first, coz we procure everything only to counter India and keep minimum force for defence only."

Each Navy has its own doctrine and the Pakistan does not intend to match the IN conventionally due to its defensive posture.

Appreciate your feedback. Thanks in advance.

F-22 are not corvettes but frigates.

 

[raveolution]

F-22 are not corvettes but frigates.

Yes they are Frigates... Growler has used the term "stealth corvettes". I used the quote for the convenience of reference.

 

[ice_man]

We Certainly acknowledge that PN has a great capability, They certainly have a good subs in their arsenal.
But Then a Nuclear Capable Indian Navy too is not having Toys , my dear.



I wont comment on which many mouths can say a lot , and nither you nor you were present on the day when it happened.

But,
Non Agression is That NONE of the 4 Wars were INITIATED by India.
Non Agression is That No INDIAN KASAB did a Mumbai in Pak.

PLEASE!!! 1971 india got involved in the civil war! in 1947 india sent in army to take over kashmir.... 1984 india entered SIACHEN which part of this is NOT INITIATING!



You are absolutely Correct Here. I agree That Pak ( wheather by Right or wrong Means ) Has very
effectively balanced the Nuclear Capability of India.

BY RIGHT OR WRONG?? how can us getting nukes has to come through wrong means?


But mate, you got to understand , that You Process to Acquire nuclear capabilty is something that has brough you the biggest shame to Your Country as Mr. Kader Khan has really spoiled Pakistan's Name in the whole world.

Yes You have Weapons, but At what cost ?
As On one side India Enjoys the Nuclear Power after Indio-Us Nuclear Deal, while a letter from Khan , Takes The Hero Of Pakistan to be Accused by His own country men.

Here is a 40 Minute Plus Documentry on It. Click Here for The Documentry :





You are partially correct, Though You Missed out Two points :

#1. Arjun is 100% Indegenious, Unlike Al-Khalid which is a Chinese Product.

#2. Arjun is being Inducted in Indian Army , so its NOT a failed product.


ARJUN IS INDIGENOUS???? are you sure!!! please go to the land forces section where i posted a video of NDTV saying india has 40% INDIAN COMPONENTS ONLY!!!!!


India has tested Agni III, and Agni II is in Induction. Plz update Ur GK regarding Indian Milssiles.
While Agini-I is enough for Entire pak is already Inductued.


ohhhhhh should i be scared!!!! FOR GOD SAKE GROW UP! BOTH SIDES GOT NUKES! AND EQUALLY POWERFUL AS THE OTHER!!

 

[unicorn148]

dont even try to compare the powers of both the navys even in the 1971 war neary the entire navy of the pak was wiped out
mr ice_man india has not send army to take over kashmir

it was anticipated that the Maharaja of kashmir would accede to Pakistan, when the British paramountcy ended on 14-15 August. When he hesitated to do this, Pakistan launched a guerilla onslaught meant to frighten its ruler into submission. Instead the Maharaja appealed to Mountbatten[20] for assistance, and the Governor-General agreed on the condition that the ruler accede to India."[21] Once the Maharaja signed the Instrument of Accession, "Indian soldiers entered Kashmir and drove the Pakistani-sponsored irregulars from all but a small section of the state.

pakisthan uses agosta subs but the france navys has decommissioned their agosta's where as IN will be useing the next generation scorpians and india has build a nuclear subs indigenously which are far superior to even the type214 what pak is planning to buy
IN will even hav 2 akula 2 subs which are one of best nuclear subs in the world
IN is even planiing to buy 6 more subs which are superior to the 214

in case of distroyers pakisthan dont have even one IN has 8 distroyers and 4 being build indigenously

in case of frigates pakistan have 8 frigates and 2 under construction in china and also buying 6 frigates of us navy which are 30 years old
in IN has 12 frigates and 6 under construction of which 3 are indigenously made

and IN has 1 aircraft carrier and 1 being build in russia and one being build indigenously in india
PN presently cannot even dream of having an aircraft carrier

 

[ice_man]

dont even try to compare the powers of both the navys even in the 1971 war neary the entire navy of the pak was wiped out
mr ice_man india has not send army to take over kashmir

it was anticipated that the Maharaja of kashmir would accede to Pakistan, when the British paramountcy ended on 14-15 August. When he hesitated to do this, Pakistan launched a guerilla onslaught meant to frighten its ruler into submission. Instead the Maharaja appealed to Mountbatten[20] for assistance, and the Governor-General agreed on the condition that the ruler accede to India."[21] Once the Maharaja signed the Instrument of Accession, "Indian soldiers entered Kashmir and drove the Pakistani-sponsored irregulars from all but a small section of the state.

pakisthan uses agosta subs but the france navys has decommissioned their agosta's where as IN will be useing the next generation scorpians and india has build a nuclear subs indigenously which are far superior to even the type214 what pak is planning to buy
IN will even hav 2 akula 2 subs which are one of best nuclear subs in the world
IN is even planiing to buy 6 more subs which are superior to the 214

in case of distroyers pakisthan dont have even one IN has 8 distroyers and 4 being build indigenously

in case of frigates pakistan have 8 frigates and 2 under construction in china and also buying 6 frigates of us navy which are 30 years old
in IN has 12 frigates and 6 under construction of which 3 are indigenously made

and IN has 1 aircraft carrier and 1 being build in russia and one being build indigenously in india
PN presently cannot even dream of having an aircraft carrier

MY GOD!!! have you come straight from BAHRAT RAKSHAK???? and what is PAISHTAN i have highlted it for you!!!!

look let's not derail this thread about history!!! for that you can go read some excellent debate on the kashmir issue in the section!

as for pakistan decommissioning AGOSTA 90b's why would we do that??? we just got them....please back up your story with an article!

as for destroyers or frigates...India has more agreed but have you seen our coast line compared to your's? i mean if anything Pakistan has a huge navy for its coastline while india infact has a very small navy for its size!!! 12 frigates & 3 or 4 destroyers are nothing given the size!

and as for aircraft carriers & dreaming about aircraft carriers well Pakistan doesn't need an aircraft carrier reason is again maritime area is small & we have no plans to project power in the area! our enemy can be reached by our frigates & from flying straight over land border! so no need for an aircraft carrier which needs to go far in order to reach close to enemy shoreline!

 

[unicorn148]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ice_man View Post
as for pakistan decommissioning AGOSTA 90b's why would we do that??? we just got them....please back up your story with an article!



no i am saying that france navys has decommissioned their agosta's 90s
thats says how old tech those subs are which are no comparision to even kilo-class subs used by india

 

[garibnawaz]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ice_man View Post
as for pakistan decommissioning AGOSTA 90b's why would we do that??? we just got them....please back up your story with an article!



no i am saying that france navys has decommissioned their agosta's 90s
thats says how old tech those subs are which are no comparision to even kilo-class subs used by india

French Navy used Agosta 70's and not 90's.

Agosta 90's are different and are modernised design built for the Pakistan Navy. No other country has Agosta-90.

Various modifications give lower acoustic signature, lower diving depth, improved battery range and performance. Greater automation also allows the crew to be reduced from 54 to 36. The submarine can be armed with up to 16 torpedoes and SM39 Exocet anti-ship anti-ship missiles.

The third Agosta-90 of PN is equipped with the MESMA air-independent propulsion (AIP) system.

GB

 

[unicorn148]

but still the even the agostha 90b cant match the capabilities of the scorpian subs and even if pakisthan is planning to buy the u 214 it will take 9-10 years for the 3 subs. by then india will have 2 akula 2 subs and 5-6 ATVs and 6 scorpians and 6 other DCNS and 10 kilo class subs

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Oh what the heck - its getting too complicated , launch the nuke underwater ...

There goes the scorpions and aircraft carrier , end of story, it will create a giant tsunami and that should take care of all the 20 frigates and also take out the place where the new ones are being built

Thank you Sir Abdul Qadir Khan for the ultimate response

 

[garibnawaz]

but still the even the agostha 90b cant match the capabilities of the scorpian subs and even if pakisthan is planning to buy the u 214 it will take 9-10 years for the 3 subs. by then india will have 2 akula 2 subs and 5-6 ATVs and 6 scorpians and 6 other DCNS and 10 kilo class subs

First its Scorpene.

Secondly its Type 214 and not U-214.

Thirdly Type-214 is also offered to India. Its who places the order first situation between India and Pakistan.

Fourthly DCN is yet to offer any submarine for Project-75B as of today only Type-214 and Amur are offered.

Fifthly in next 10 years we won't be having 5-6 ATV's.

Sixthly Kilo's will start retiring 2012 onwards so you won't have 10 of them in next 10 years.

and last but not the least a comparision between Agosta 90's and Scorpene's of IN is premature at this stage.

GB

 

[unicorn148]

First its Scorpene.

Secondly its Type 214 and not U-214.

Thirdly Type-214 is also offered to India. Its who places the order first situation between India and Pakistan.

Fourthly DCN is yet to offer any submarine for Project-75B as of today only Type-214 and Amur are offered.

Fifthly in next 10 years we won't be having 5-6 ATV's.

Sixthly Kilo's will start retiring 2012 onwards so you won't have 10 of them in next 10 years.

and last but not the least a comparision between Agosta 90's and Scorpene's of IN is premature at this stage.

GB

IN is planning to build a min of 5 ATV by 2020 and it will also have2 akula 2 subs and kilo class subs have been retofitted and the life has been extended and some of them are undergoing.
the project 75 b will be completed by 2020
List of submarines of the Indian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the constructin of the 2nd-3rd ATVs has started which will be launched in 2011-2012

 

[raveolution]

Secondly its Type 214 and not U-214.

Well yes it is named Type 214 but is also generically called as U-214 as German subs have been referred to as U-Boats since WW2.

Fourthly DCN is yet to offer any submarine for Project-75B as of today only Type-214 and Amur are offered.

The Indian Navy is now on the look out for six next-generation submarines in a project worth over Rs 30,000 crore. These six diesel-electric submarines built in India under Project-75I, will be equipped with air-independent propulsion boosting their operational capabilities and will have high degree of stealth, land-attack capability and ability to incorporate futuristic technologies. RFI has been issued to Rosoboronexport, French (Armaris), HDW and other firms, two rounds of discussions have already taken place. The RFP or global tender will be issued in late-2008 or early-2009. This has been revised to 2010, with deliveries beginning from 2017, after the last Scorpene has been delivered.

Fifthly in next 10 years we won't be having 5-6 ATV's.

A total of six subs in this class are planned with 3 being SSBN's and 3 being SSN's. The 3rd ATV is planned for induction around 2016-17, so we will atleast have 3 of not more, plus the 2 Akula's.

Sixthly Kilo's will start retiring 2012 onwards so you won't have 10 of them in next 10 years.

The Kilo's are not retiring anytime soon. The first was inducted around 1986 and the last in 2000. We have subs still running from the 1960's such as the Foxtrot's, which will be retired soon.The older Kilo subs have already gone through their mid-life refit and are expected to serve atleast till 2020.

and last but not the least a comparision between Agosta 90's and Scorpene's of IN is premature at this stage.

Definitely. We should wait until we get the Scorpene's and then talk, though it is better to talk once the deal is signed rather than keep talking before anything is official. However, it is a fact that the Agosta 90 Class subs were succeeded by the Scorpene Class subs.

If you do need links for any of this info please let me know.

 

[garibnawaz]

IN is planning to build a min of 5 ATV by 2020

the constructin of the 2nd-3rd ATVs has started which will be launched in 2011-2012

Planning does not mean they will achieve it. It is very crucial that the first ATV gets out and completes its sea trails as expected by 2012. If that is a success then and then only IN will move ahead with construction of more ATV's apart from the 2 that you have mentioned. If the first ATV commissioning is delayed then the rest will be delayed as well.

the project 75 b will be completed by 2020
List of submarines of the Indian Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In order to achieve that they need finalize the deal (for Project 75B) this year. The Scorpene the deal was done in 2005. First Scorpene is expected by 2012 ( 7 years after the deal) where as the 6th (last) is expected by 2017.

By this law even if the deal for Project 75B is done this year (which is not going to happen) we won't be having all 6 subs by 2020.

Well yes it is named Type 214 but is also generically called as U-214 as German subs have been referred to as U-Boats since WW2.

Individual German submarines are named as U-xxx (not to confuse with penant numbers) not their classes. U-xxx is basially the name just as INS - XXXXX

For example Type-212 in German service are named as U-31 (S-181), U-32 (S-182) ,U-33 (S-183) ,U-34 (S-184), U-35 (S-185) and U-36 (S-186).

The S numbers in bracket are penant numbers just like IN subamrine penant numbers. INS Sindhugosh is S-55.

The Indian Navy is now on the look out for six next-generation submarines in a project worth over Rs 30,000 crore. These six diesel-electric submarines built in India under Project-75I, will be equipped with air-independent propulsion boosting their operational capabilities and will have high degree of stealth, land-attack capability and ability to incorporate futuristic technologies. RFI has been issued to Rosoboronexport, French (Armaris), HDW and other firms, two rounds of discussions have already taken place. The RFP or global tender will be issued in late-2008 or early-2009. This has been revised to 2010, with deliveries beginning from 2017, after the last Scorpene has been delivered.

RFP has been issued. Not that DCN has any submarine to offer. As I mentioned only HDW (Type-214) and Amur class subs are offer.

Please understand the difference between RFP and actual stuff offered.

A total of six subs in this class are planned with 3 being SSBN's and 3 being SSN's. The 3rd ATV is planned for induction around 2016-17, so we will atleast have 3 of not more, plus the 2 Akula's.

Planned. Please see the earlier info that I have mentioned in the same post. Nobody is fighting over the number and induction of Akula's. I am debating on 5-6 ATV's by 2020.

The Kilo's are not retiring anytime soon. The first was inducted around 1986 and the last in 2000. We have subs still running from the 1960's such as the Foxtrot's, which will be retired soon.The older Kilo subs have already gone through their mid-life refit and are expected to serve atleast till 2020.

The foxtrot story.

Kalvari S23 (08 December 1967) - decommissioned on 31 May 1996Khanderi S22 (06 December 1968) - decommissioned on 18 October 1989
Karanj S21 (04 September 1969) - decommissioned on 01 August 2003
Kursura S20 (18 December 1969) - decommissioned on 27 September 2001
Vagir S41 (03 November 1973) - decommissioned on 07 June 2001
Vagsheer S43 (26 December 1974) - decommissioned on 30 April 1997

The only two foxtrot in service INS Vela (1973) and INS Vagli (1974) are used as technology demonstrator for ATV and for training. They are no use at the time of war.

Kilo's will be phased out as per their life cycle. First in first go out. Typically a diesel sub's life is 25 years which can be extended to 30 years by refit.

Definitely. We should wait until we get the Scorpene's and then talk, though it is better to talk once the deal is signed rather than keep talking before anything is official.

My point to wait till the subs are commissioned is to observe the changes/additions which will be made by the time the sub is commisioned. Just like we did with MKI's. We signed something and we got a lot better (Co-operation with French and Israeli's).

However, it is a fact that the Agosta 90 Class subs were succeeded by the Scorpene Class subs.

True but then whats the major differences between the two subs that you wish to indicate?

GB

 

[ironman]

RFP has been issued. Not that DCN has any submarine to offer. As I mentioned only HDW (Type-214) and Amur class subs are offer.

Please understand the difference between RFP and actual stuff offered.
GB

DCNS Promotes Three Submarine Classes at IMDEX​

DCNS, he supplier of the six new frigates recently joining the Singapore Navy has a massive presence at IMDEX. Among the company's leading product in the region are the Scorpene medium-size submarines, the most recent sub was delivered to the Malaysian Navy earlier this year. Six submarines are currently under construction for India.

According to DCNS, the Scorpene submarines represents the state of the art in submarine design and construction and benefits from the latest technologies developed for nuclear-powered classes operated by the French Navy, particularly as regards acoustic discretion and combat system performance. Excellent endurance makes these submarines among the few medium-displacement designs suitable for extended ocean patrol duties.

DCNS is also displaying the Andrasta, a compact submarine designed to operate in coastal waters, a theatre of growing importance to all maritime nations. A direct descendant of the Scorpene, this class offers stealth, agility and power.

For Navies with requirements for ocean going submarines, DCNS is proposing the SMX-24 - a long-range, ocean-going conventional propulsion submarine (SSK) with an excellent payload capability. The modular design can be reconfigured to optimize for specific missions each navy defines. The mission profile ranges from special operations to massive land strikes, in addition to the usual missions assigned to ocean-going SSKs, which is to say, attacks against enemy naval forces and fleet protection, both of which require significant anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare capabilities.