Pakistan Navy | News & Discussions.

[fatman17]

Atlantics have retired
5 P3C in service
3 MPA under upgrade. 1 completed

3 MPAs, are you sure ?

I thought PN had 2 P-3Cs and 2/3 Atlantics as MPA.

 

[Yasser76]

Thought we had 7 P-3Cs?

 

[MIRauf]

Atlantics have retired
5 P3C in service
3 MPA under upgrade. 1 completed

We were discussing year 2000, # of MPA at that time.

 

[mingle]

Atlantics have retired
5 P3C in service
3 MPA under upgrade. 1 completed

You sure? Two gutted at Mehran? Did we got replacement?

 

[mingle]

Thought we had 7 P-3Cs?

Two gutted at Mehran?

 

[fatman17]

My bad Sir

We were discussing year 2000, # of MPA at that time.

 

[fatman17]

2-1/2

Two gutted at Mehran?

 

[Reichmarshal]

Total was 9, 2 destroyed so 7 left

 

[fatman17]

With at least 2 cannabalised for spares. 5 operating thus the MPAs to make up the numbers for long range and coastal surveillance

Total was 9, 2 destroyed so 7 left

 

[Tank131]

With at least 2 cannabalised for spares. 5 operating thus the MPAs to make up the numbers for long range and coastal surveillance

Does this number also include the ATR?

The plans have already been put into place. We have options from our two allies, and some indigenous options.

Any notion as to the timeline and what systems (without specifics) they are planning to upgrade?

Sure, but at what point do you decide that is it worth literally stripping the whole thing down to the shell and reinstalling new systems from the ground up? It was a short sighted move on behalf of the PN to go for the 053H3 platform, id argue with the induction of new ships they become a liability. While yes, the hull itself is probably capable of far nicer sensors and weapons, could the potential cost be worth it? Im certain it would be more economical to procure a new ship along the lines of J-Class or a follow up 054A/P order. Though, the latter would be costly, it would be sensible for the PN to reduce the amount of platforms and have one or two mainstay's (054 and J-Class) in the weight class while having Azmat and Azmat based platforms below. Maybe if PN decides they want a corvette they could look at Sigma or whatever. I guess it all comes down to the quality and the overall costs of the hull, how much life they have left, is it worth it vs a new platform? etc etc

J-CLASS will be something close to $200M per ship. If the Hulls of the F-22P are in good shape, then upgrades would likely be far cheaper than replacing them. The ship itself is not all that bad. It has good anti-surface capabilities, which can be upgraded with a new missile. Replacing its electronics would do wonders for its situational awareness and improving its CMS will really modernize it. It has solid ASW capabilities but this could be improve upon by adding an anti-torpedo system and a towed sonar array. The major issue regarding upgrading it will be what to do with the air defense systems. If you extrapolate what the Thai did with the Naresuan class (8 cell mk41 behind the main gun for 32 ESSM). The same thing could be done for F-22P. If PN can get a quad packed SAM (possible options include G40 from Turkey if it comes to market or CAMM-ER from italy) you could get a modern frigate for probably a fraction of a new J-class. That isnt to say they shouldnt push for at least 8-12 J-class too.

Actually if it is just for maritime air defence than 3 Type 055 DDGs would be the best bet. Armed with HHQ-9 even just docked in Karachi harbour they can provide air defence and ABM defence.

Why not just put a few batteries of HQ-9 in Karachi then and spare the ship?

 

[Rafi]

Does this number also include the ATR?


Any n,otion as to the timeline and what systems (without specifics) they are planning to upgrade?


J-CLASS will be something close to $200M per ship. If the Hulls of the F-22P are in good shape, then upgrades would likely be far cheaper than replacing them. The ship itself is not all that bad. It has good anti-surface capabilities, which can be upgraded with a new missile. Replacing its electronics would do wonders for its situational awareness and improving its CMS will really modernize it. It has solid ASW capabilities but this could be improve upon by adding an anti-torpedo system and a towed sonar array. The major issue regarding upgrading it will be what to do with the air defense systems. If you extrapolate what the Thai did with the Naresuan class (8 cell mk41 behind the main gun for 32 ESSM). The same thing could be done for F-22P. If PN can get a quad packed SAM (possible options include G40 from Turkey if it comes to market or CAMM-ER from italy) you could get a modern frigate for probably a fraction of a new J-class. That isnt to say they shouldnt push for at least 8-12 J-class too.



Why not just put a few batteries of HQ-9 in Karachi then and spare the ship?

Radars, SAM, Sonar.

 

[Akh1112]

Does this number also include the ATR?


Any notion as to the timeline and what systems (without specifics) they are planning to upgrade?


J-CLASS will be something close to $200M per ship. If the Hulls of the F-22P are in good shape, then upgrades would likely be far cheaper than replacing them. The ship itself is not all that bad. It has good anti-surface capabilities, which can be upgraded with a new missile. Replacing its electronics would do wonders for its situational awareness and improving its CMS will really modernize it. It has solid ASW capabilities but this could be improve upon by adding an anti-torpedo system and a towed sonar array. The major issue regarding upgrading it will be what to do with the air defense systems. If you extrapolate what the Thai did with the Naresuan class (8 cell mk41 behind the main gun for 32 ESSM). The same thing could be done for F-22P. If PN can get a quad packed SAM (possible options include G40 from Turkey if it comes to market or CAMM-ER from italy) you could get a modern frigate for probably a fraction of a new J-class. That isnt to say they shouldnt push for at least 8-12 J-class too.



Why not just put a few batteries of HQ-9 in Karachi then and spare the ship?

A total refit of the ship could end up being really expensive. J-Class seems reasonably cheap at $200m a ship

 

[ghazi52]

Excited to put flowers on baba's grave

To Allah we belong and to Him we return. May Allah place light in Zeeshan's grave until it shines, and may the door of paradise always open for him..Aameen
Proud Son of Lt Cdr Zeeshan Shaheed..

Lots of love and prayers for you Little Champ..

 

[Tank131]

A total refit of the ship could end up being really expensive. J-Class seems reasonably cheap at $200m a ship

With due respect, but what are you basing this statement on (that a total refit would be very expensive)? In 2011 SAAB recieved the contract from the Thai to perform MLU (OF weapons and electronics) for 2 Thai Navy Naresuan Class frigates (Chinese Type 053) for a total value of $72M ($36M per ship). This included Mk41 VLS, new secondary guns, Saab’s 9LV MK4 combat management system, Sea Giraffe AMB 3D long range air surveillance radar, CEROS 200 fire control systems, EOS 500 electro-optical system, Tactical Data Links (TDL’s) for communications with the newly acquired Royal Thai Air Force Erieye surveillance aircraft, a new sonar system, a new ESM system and a few other improvements. That could put the F-22p upgrade (if pn goes with slightly better system and adjusting for some inflation) at ~$35-$40M/ship, meaing ~$140-160M for all 4 ships (less than the cost of J-class for similar performance).

Now @Rafi can correct me but this seems to be exactly in the same vein as what PN would need l, except it may require less changes (secondary guns and AShM, and Sonar dont really need to be changed for F-22P), and given they are likely to source many electronics (like Genesis Advent CMS) from Turkey to improve interoperability of the fleet (F-22p and J-Class) the cost may be near if not less to what Thai paid the swedes for some things. The big issue would be sourcing the VLS/SAMs. I hope that we will be surprised by Italians and MILGEM/J-class would be equipped with CAMM-ER, in which case, F-22p would get these as well in all likelihood. There is the possibility of the G-40 40km quad packed missile from Turkey (if they complete development) which could also work) but i dont see enough room in F-22P (if we use Naresuan Class as a template) for more than 12 cells...more likely 8 like Naresuan Class. With that, they absolutely would need a quad packed SAM to make it worthwhile unless they load tye ship up with something like HQ-10 (6 on each type 730 and 24 cell FL-3000N) which still isnt ideal... Although you may be able to fit 16 cells for. Umkhonto in that area (8 cells for the Hamina class with far less space).

 

[Akh1112]

With due respect, but what are you basing this statement on (that a total refit would be very expensive)? In 2011 SAAB recieved the contract from the Thai to perform MLU (OF weapons and electronics) for 2 Thai Navy Naresuan Class frigates (Chinese Type 053) for a total value of $72M ($36M per ship). This included Mk41 VLS, new secondary guns, Saab’s 9LV MK4 combat management system, Sea Giraffe AMB 3D long range air surveillance radar, CEROS 200 fire control systems, EOS 500 electro-optical system, Tactical Data Links (TDL’s) for communications with the newly acquired Royal Thai Air Force Erieye surveillance aircraft, a new sonar system, a new ESM system and a few other improvements. That could put the F-22p upgrade (if pn goes with slightly better system and adjusting for some inflation) at ~$35-$40M/ship, meaing ~$140-160M for all 4 ships (less than the cost of J-class for similar performance).

Now @Rafi can correct me but this seems to be exactly in the same vein as what PN would need l, except it may require less changes (secondary guns and AShM, and Sonar dont really need to be changed for F-22P), and given they are likely to source many electronics (like Genesis Advent CMS) from Turkey to improve interoperability of the fleet (F-22p and J-Class) the cost may be near if not less to what Thai paid the swedes for some things. The big issue would be sourcing the VLS/SAMs. I hope that we will be surprised by Italians and MILGEM/J-class would be equipped with CAMM-ER, in which case, F-22p would get these as well in all likelihood. There is the possibility of the G-40 40km quad packed missile from Turkey (if they complete development) which could also work) but i dont see enough room in F-22P (if we use Naresuan Class as a template) for more than 12 cells...more likely 8 like Naresuan Class. With that, they absolutely would need a quad packed SAM to make it worthwhile unless they load tye ship up with something like HQ-10 (6 on each type 730 and 24 cell FL-3000N) which still isnt ideal... Although you may be able to fit 16 cells for. Umkhonto in that area (8 cells for the Hamina class with far less space).

Yeah no, looks like you are right. I was always under the impression that they rolled out of the dock with MK41 and whatnot (due to the extensive hull modifications that would have been needed to fit it after the fact but i guess the 053H3 hull is capable of supporting shorter VLS without alot of modification which would make sense since it looks to use mk48 which is made for these kinds of things? I am still semi skeptical on the pricing however, as far as i can see, there seems to have been two contracts, one in 2011 for 72m then another in 2012 for 84m. I am also unsure if this is independent of the FMS for MK48+ESSM+Supporting systems that was for around $40-50m or something. While i guess the investment isnt bad when you look at it from an isolated sense, however, when looking at this vs the cost of the platform as a whole, is it worth it?

Though i agree with everything else you say, an upgrade along the lines of Naresuan is exactly in line with everything the PN wants for the future. Its just a matter of whether the cost and whatnot is worth it. Bear in mind, the Naresuan class upgrade was probably as economical as it gets due to the economies of scale available to the US, a CAMM or Turkish option would be significantly more expensive iirc. Our options for VLS would need to either a US option or Sylver which likely would suffer from Indian lobbying or it would be very expensive(or so i hear.) I guess the PN could look to MK48 or ExLS if they are able to get their hands on a US VLS for J-Class