Pakistan Navy interested in J-11Bs

[maverick1977]

In the Indo Pak Corridor, most of our positions would be defensive. For this we need cheap readily replacable single engined fighters. JFT fits the bill to the utmost.We dont need twin engined fighters as we dont have enough depth and our pockets are empty.
As to J11/J15 debate, I have already mentioned that if I remember correctly, the j15 was made for carrier use and it seems ulikely that PN would ever have a carrier. The chinese have a habit of modernizing planes in accordance with tech available so whatever we end up buying will have the latest chinese tech that they are offerring to us.

Araz, the way PAF, Navy and army is modernizing i wont be surprised if defence doctrine of army will change to offensive one. Army still has edge over india interms of artillery, tanks are getting better and better. If pakistan raised more infantry divisions over time and couple of mechanized divisions, things might change in sub-continent over night.

Navy with increased number of subs might destroy most of indian supplies tilting the tide of war in favour of pakistan. Therefore, things from defensive will change in next 8 to 10 years.

lets stick to the topic. Dont intend to highjack this thread.

 

[khurasaan1]

Araz, the way PAF, Navy and army is modernizing i wont be surprised if defence doctrine of army will change to offensive one. Army still has edge over india interms of artillery, tanks are getting better and better. If pakistan raised more infantry divisions over time and couple of mechanized divisions, things might change in sub-continent over night.

Navy with increased number of subs might destroy most of indian supplies tilting the tide of war in favour of pakistan. Therefore, things from defensive will change in next 8 to 10 years.

lets stick to the topic. Dont intend to highjack this thread.

We needa be offensive ..cuz cant duck like defensive.......

 

[notorious_eagle]

we'll you people have had a lot of discussion on the WS-10 and its problems here itself on PDF, The thing on newer J-10B is another variant which can only be evaluated when it comes in regular service...................Chinese are good businessmen they know how to sell their stuff you see J-17, when PAF could have had say Mig 29/J-10A/Rafale in lesser no.s but far-far better than what you got, considering the opponent's flankers on the otherside,
I don't want to fuel an off topic debate here but BARS can jam and make KLJ-7 useless hence blinding the plane at same time Mig 29SMT/Rafale would have been a better option.

So let me get this straight, a radar will jam another radar . I can only expect my Indian friends to come up with this modern science to further inflate the SU30MKI, whats next the BARS will jam the entire radar network of PAF . Thank You for the laughs

 

[Areesh]

So let me get this straight, a radar will jam another radar . I can only expect my Indian friends to come up with this modern science to further inflate the SU30MKI, whats next the BARS will jam the entire radar network of PAF . Thank You for the laughs

The next thing would be that BARS would jam the whole radio network of Pakistan.

NO FM 100.

 

[araz]

Araz, the way PAF, Navy and army is modernizing i wont be surprised if defence doctrine of army will change to offensive one. Army still has edge over india interms of artillery, tanks are getting better and better. If pakistan raised more infantry divisions over time and couple of mechanized divisions, things might change in sub-continent over night.

Navy with increased number of subs might destroy most of indian supplies tilting the tide of war in favour of pakistan. Therefore, things from defensive will change in next 8 to 10 years.

lets stick to the topic. Dont intend to highjack this thread.

I dont think PA will go on an offensive mode vis a vis India ___ at least not in the true sense of the word offensive. Our current doctine looks at quick gains and then a defensive posture to secure the gains. Offensive doctine would involve a lot more defense related procurements which we cant sustain at the moment. Itrrespective of what we do it would be a recipe for disaster as India can out maneouvre us, open multiple fronts and sustain a war a lot longer than we can.So in my very humble opinion, it will only end up Bankrupting us and we will lose before we have gone to war.
I am sure people like fatman and Xeric and blain will bea lot more knowledgeable than me on this front.
Araz

 

[DARKY]

So let me get this straight, a radar will jam another radar . I can only expect my Indian friends to come up with this modern science to further inflate the SU30MKI, whats next the BARS will jam the entire radar network of PAF . Thank You for the laughs

My pleasure at least I can make a "Pakistani friend" laugh.
And about bold parts I am sorry to say that a Radar does Jam another Radar.
Take a brotherly advice as you have called me as a friend don't ever claim any thing on partial/half knowledge and demonstrate your idoiticy to others by laughing on it.............it gives a bad impression about your educational background and more importantly your country..........only last night one of your types was claiming that Pakistani AWACS can't be detect beyond 250-300 km.

 

[khurasaan1]

The next thing would be that BARS would jam the whole radio network of Pakistan.

NO FM 100.

Yea we dont even like our radio FM100 cuz wastage of time ...listening to songz all the time....

 

[notorious_eagle]

My pleasure at least I can make a "Pakistani friend" laugh.
And about bold parts I am sorry to say that a Radar does Jam another Radar.
Take a brotherly advice as you have called me as a friend don't ever claim any thing on partial/half knowledge and demonstrate your idoiticy to others by laughing on it.............it gives a bad impression about your educational background and more importantly your country..........only last night one of your types was claiming that Pakistani AWACS can't be detect beyond 250-300 km.

Please expand on how a radar can jam another radar? I am very curious to know where this audacious claim comes from.

I guess Air Forces around the world, IAF including, is mighty idiotic enough to add additional EW suites when in fact the THE SUPER DUPER Bars Radar can jam other radars. I dont know what science are you using but there is no way in hell the Bars can jam the KLJ7, you would have a better argument saying that the EW suites of the MKI can jam the KLJ-7. Also to effectively jam the KLJ-7 with 100% accuracy as you are claiming, the IAF needs to know the frequency of the KLJ-7, last time i checked the IAF didnt have the KLJ-7 in its inventory to conduct tests. You are also forgetting the fact that JF17's are equipped with self protection jammer pods and the KLJ-7 is a multi mode radar, saying it is easier than doing it.

 

[qcdence]

great ,thanks for sharing

 

[DARKY]

Please expand on how a radar can jam another radar? I am very curious to know where this audacious claim comes from.

I guess Air Forces around the world, IAF including, is mighty idiotic enough to add additional EW suites when in fact the THE SUPER DUPER Bars Radar can jam other radars. I dont know what science are you using but there is no way in hell the Bars can jam the KLJ7, you would have a better argument saying that the EW suites of the MKI can jam the KLJ-7. Also to effectively jam the KLJ-7 with 100% accuracy as you are claiming, the IAF needs to know the frequency of the KLJ-7, last time i checked the IAF didnt have the KLJ-7 in its inventory to conduct tests. You are also forgetting the fact that JF17's are equipped with self protection jammer pods and the KLJ-7 is a multi mode radar, saying it is easier than doing it.

Now since you've asked please get your self updated on how Radars are jammed using electronics.
A simple question 'what actually a jammer or EW suites is??'
They also contain T/R modules and concentrate their energies on target determined by the main radar, actually they are like mini radars that can hop onto different frequencies and those frequencies are amplified by the main radar energy generators to jam an inferior/less powerful radar like KLJ-7 now with the advent of packing small transmitters in a large aperture of a radar the frequency hopping part can be done by main radar itself so separate EW suits aren't req.
Ever heard AN/APG-81 jamming the mighty AN/APG-77(Radar on the F-22A Raptor) which is an AESA with 2200 T/R modules.
Actually you need to know a lot and I am unable to think where do I start from so it would be better if you did a little painful job of Googling about the same.



By the small and low powered pulse droppler radars like KLJ-7 can't switch many frequencies so it is'nt difficult to jam them.

 

[SQ8]

Now since you've asked please get your self updated on how Radars are jammed using electronics.
A simple question 'what actually a jammer or EW suites is??'
They also contain T/R modules and concentrate their energies on target determined by the main radar, actually they are like mini radars that can hop onto different frequencies and those frequencies are amplified by the main radar energy generators to jam an inferior/less powerful radar like KLJ-7 now with the advent of packing small transmitters in a large aperture of a radar the frequency hopping part can be done by main radar itself so separate EW suits aren't req.
Ever heard AN/APG-81 jamming the mighty AN/APG-77(Radar on the F-22A Raptor) which is an AESA with 2200 T/R modules.
Actually you need to know a lot and I am unable to think where do I start from so it would be better if you did a little painful job of Googling about the same.



By the small and low powered pulse droppler radars like KLJ-7 can't switch many frequencies so it is'nt difficult to jam them.

Right..

An ESA isnt magic.. but it is a powerful advantage..
each T/R module usually ends up transmitting a small amount of power compared to the monster's that sit on the Russian jets like the bars..
Its when they work in unison that they are effective.
Their ability to instantaneously transmit across a wide band of frequencies offers the secondary jamming ability.
However.. older jammer's too have had this capability of switching across multiple frequencies at pretty much similar rates ..
The big advantage was being able to steer the beam and perform multiple tasks at the same time.
Now how does an AESA radar match up against a "inferior(made by CHina.. used by Pakistani's so it must be so.. I know the thinking process in the east)"..
First.. the AESA can allow the user to jam the standard pulse doppler radar... well.. great.. you just gave away your presence..
So our intrepid J-11/JF-17 "inferior" pilot decides to use his passive sensors to pick you out, since whilst you are jamming you are transmitting all the power you have on that thing.. here is a nice Sd-10B for you..

wait... here is a smart pilot.. he decides to use his AESA in LPI mode.. which means letting its T/R modules transmit smaller ,less powerful beams at the "inferior" aircraft each at a different freq .. and see's where there is a common spike in the return of those beams..
Problem with using less power is that your detection range decreases.. So you have to get closer to pick out the inferior jet.
But wait.. your jet has a big huge arse that stick out like a sore thumb.. so the inferior radar on the inferior jet with all its lack of capability still picks you out..lo and behold.. where is that SD-10 coming from??

You act smart.. you hit those israeli or European jammers.. they blank out the link between the inferior jet and the inferior missile..
But wait.. that inferior missile has a home on jam capability.. it picks you out anyway.. and follows your jamming home like a lost puppy..

So you google some more.. and decide to use your maneuverability to outfly the missile..whilst your GIBS gets off a shot or two at the inferior jets..

Google for the result..

P.S

No pakistani dare mention that the inferior jet will gets its AESA in the next batch.. and will be retrofitted on the last ones..
even thought the Opposition jets with the supposed AESA are without them.
No pakistani dare mention that the AESA upgrade for the J-11B that is being screamed about at every other chinese forum is there as well.. or that the J-10B starts with the AESA in the first place..
Blasphemy to do so after all..

 

[DARKY]

Right..

An ESA isnt magic.. but it is a powerful advantage..
each T/R module usually ends up transmitting a small amount of power compared to the monster's that sit on the Russian jets like the bars..
Its when they work in unison that they are effective.
Their ability to instantaneously transmit across a wide band of frequencies offers the secondary jamming ability.
However.. older jammer's too have had this capability of switching across multiple frequencies at pretty much similar rates ..
The big advantage was being able to steer the beam and perform multiple tasks at the same time.
Now how does an AESA radar match up against a "inferior(made by CHina.. used by Pakistani's so it must be so.. I know the thinking process in the east)"..
First.. the AESA can allow the user to jam the standard pulse doppler radar... well.. great.. you just gave away your presence..
So our intrepid J-11/JF-17 "inferior" pilot decides to use his passive sensors to pick you out, since whilst you are jamming you are transmitting all the power you have on that thing.. here is a nice Sd-10B for you..

wait... here is a smart pilot.. he decides to use his AESA in LPI mode.. which means letting its T/R modules transmit smaller ,less powerful beams at the "inferior" aircraft each at a different freq .. and see's where there is a common spike in the return of those beams..
Problem with using less power is that your detection range decreases.. So you have to get closer to pick out the inferior jet.
But wait.. your jet has a big huge arse that stick out like a sore thumb.. so the inferior radar on the inferior jet with all its lack of capability still picks you out..lo and behold.. where is that SD-10 coming from??

You act smart.. you hit those israeli or European jammers.. they blank out the link between the inferior jet and the inferior missile..
But wait.. that inferior missile has a home on jam capability.. it picks you out anyway.. and follows your jamming home like a lost puppy..

So you google some more.. and decide to use your maneuverability to outfly the missile..whilst your GIBS gets off a shot or two at the inferior jets..

Google for the result..

P.S

No pakistani dare mention that the inferior jet will gets its AESA in the next batch.. and will be retrofitted on the last ones..
even thought the Opposition jets with the supposed AESA are without them.
No pakistani dare mention that the AESA upgrade for the J-11B that is being screamed about at every other chinese forum is there as well.. or that the J-10B starts with the AESA in the first place..
Blasphemy to do so after all..

Air combats aren't fairy tale..........and even if it were happen that 2 dumb a@@ pilots were on booze and didn't try break the datalink between SD-10 right when the missile was launched or lets say super Chinese electronics made that missile launched from say 70km under severe ECM environment.........and the missiles were to reach the range when they could switch its active homing...........then also my jet which ''has a big huge arse that stick out like a sore thumb'' also has TVC along with it so that it could perform maneuver to break the homing/out run the mighty SD-10.

Yeah and waiting for the 1st Chinese AESA to come out.......

P.S.

Even AESA are jammed these days.

 

[Luftwaffe]

darky...are you trying to suggest no matter what the opposition tries to do, your huge arse jet will out perform out-maneuver in all out environment...
Get a life if you don't know engagement rules don't be so sure.

Read that content carefully what mr. santro is trying to explain don't come to conclusion so early the point and fact is your jet's arse will notify its area of presence while trying to use jammers and you know what proceeds next..
Capabilities in the end the inferior jet catches up and as said pick your anyways.

Lastly whether su or migs over Pakistani airspace will find it difficult its not a easy place to be where you can come across all challenges from air and land so thankyou for pointing out air combat is not a fairy tale just TVC can't save your jets arse.

 

[SQ8]

Air combats aren't fairy tale..........and even if it were happen that 2 dumb a@@ pilots were on booze and didn't try break the datalink between SD-10 right when the missile was launched or lets say super Chinese electronics made that missile launched from say 70km under severe ECM environment.........and the missiles were to reach the range when they could switch its active homing...........then also my jet which ''has a big huge arse that stick out like a sore thumb'' also has TVC along with it so that it could perform maneuver to break the homing/out run the mighty SD-10.

Yeah and waiting for the 1st Chinese AESA to come out.......

P.S.

Even AESA are jammed these days.

I hate being proved right about you folks all the time..
And then those ten percent get all edgy when I find the 90 percent responsible for my opinion of the folks in the east.

Expect to google more for the Chinese AESA.. till then.. go edit wikipedia for a while.

 

[DARKY]

darky...are you trying to suggest no matter what the opposition tries to do, your huge arse jet will out perform out-maneuver in all out environment...
Get a life if you don't know engagement rules don't be so sure.

Read that content carefully what mr. santro is trying to explain

Well Please look up the scenario which he's trying to show up.
Let me ask a simple question how would a JF-17 pilot launch SD-10 on a flanker 160km away? Now don't come up with stuff like AWACS would be present and blah blah.

2nd why won't Flankers also launch a couple of missiles on the target once it gets into engagement zone.

3rd even after prolonged Jamming how come a KLJ-17 or any passive sensor for that matter guide a SD-10 on the flanker??

3rd why won't the flankers immediately use their ECM to break the missile linkup from main radar before the missile enters homing stage??

4th would any pilot sit waiting for opponents radar to be jammed when a missile is homing?