Pakistan Navy interested in J-11Bs

[DARKY]

There many questions poping up once you start digging.
I never said no matter how, flankers would outmaneuver the opponent no it won't be Still literally they would win most of the time.
Its electronic stuff plus the kinemetics stuff combination which make them the most lethal of 4-4.5 gen. Planes.
Such a luxury can't be afforded on planes like F-15 simply due to design of fuselage.
Planes like JF-17 are like babies before this beast................lets leave the fighting part to our pilot they know better than us.

 

[DARKY]

I hate being proved right about you folks all the time..
And then those ten percent get all edgy when I find the 90 percent responsible for my opinion of the folks in the east.

Who cares

 

[Luftwaffe]

Well Please look up the scenario which he's trying to show up.
Let me ask a simple question how would a JF-17 pilot launch SD-10 on a flanker 160km away? Now don't come up with stuff like AWACS would be present and blah blah.

2nd why won't Flankers also launch a couple of missiles on the target once it gets into engagement zone.

3rd even after prolonged Jamming how come a KLJ-17 or any passive sensor for that matter guide a SD-10 on the flanker??

3rd why won't the flankers immediately use their ECM to break the missile linkup from main radar before the missile enters homing stage??

4th would any pilot sit waiting for opponents radar to be jammed when a missile is homing?

Same questions could be asked from you would the opposition pilot be duffer enough to sit and wait for flanker to dance with tvc.

Ahahaha typical now you are downplaying legendary F-15 that still kills any bird. Please make some sense...

 

[notorious_eagle]

Santro ripped apart your argument about the Bars jamming the KLJ-7, thus no point of me replying to that post.

There many questions poping up once you start digging.
I never said no matter how, flankers would outmaneuver the opponent no it won't be Still literally they would win most of the time.

This is exactly the mentality the Indian pilots went with during the Red Flag Exercise, they thought that their super duper TVC will make their jet simply unbeatable in WVR combat. The IAF pilots go for WVR engagements 1 on 1 against the F16's and F15's, they use their amazing TVC capability, GUESS WHAT? Its their TVC that gets them killed, the jet goes into post stall manoeuvre and starts bleeding massive energy, while the agile F16 and F15's get into positions quickly and get kills on them. They manage to hammer the SU30MKI over and over to the point that the Indians refuse to go 1 on 1 .

Its electronic stuff plus the kinemetics stuff combination which make them the most lethal of 4-4.5 gen. Planes.

Indeed an excellent plane, but stop making out into something its not. Its not a 'God's gift to Aviation', other aircrafts are present with their own capabilities to counter the Flanker.

Such a luxury can't be afforded on planes like F-15 simply due to design of fuselage.

If you are referring to the TVC, the Americans did test TVC on the F16's long before. They were smart and realized that its worth not the hassle because TVC engines are a maintenance nightmare, they were smart and realized that its more lethal to develop missiles which have TVC and are cued up to the latest HMD. If you are talking about the electronics of the F15, the latest variants of the F15's have far superior avionics as compared to those found on SU30MKI.

Planes like JF-17 are like babies before this beast................lets leave the fighting part to our pilot they know better than us.

Sure keep believing that, i can see that your blind patriotism is getting the best of your judgement. I am still yet to find a rational argument from an Indian post on how the SU30MKI the so called 'God's Gift to Aviation' will win hands down against the JF17, if we were sending the JF17 1 on 1 against the SU30MKI than you would have a point, but frankly wars are not fought 1 on 1. They are fought in a collective effort where all assets are combined together to form an offensive punch. PAF has more than enough faith on the JF17's, that is why they have increased the order for this puppy .

 

[Dazzler]

@ DARKY

There are so many flaws in your argument that i find it hard where to begin from in the first place.... Just a couple of points to start with although you seem to be dingling in the MKI fantasy, yet another case.

1. The BARS radar has a tracking range of 120-30 kms against a 3m2 RCS fighter, and the known thing about JFT is that it has an RCS much lesser than 3m2, now, the KLJ-7 has a tracking range against a 5m2 fighter of around 110 km and you should know the MKI has more RCS than 5m2, so tracking range stuff comes down to pretty much even steven. this can be checked/ verified on google, do us all a favor please.

2. KLJ-7 has a powerful anti jamming capability so some how IF MKI found the appropriate frequency to jam it which is just a by chance scenario since Indians do not know a lot about it, here will come the anti jamming mode for MKI to counter.

Now these are two very general scenarios that both fighters will find while an initial face off, sort of an EW show off, rest will follow and believe me, rest of scenario will not be a good news for MKI too.

 

[typhoon77]

1. The BARS radar has a tracking range of 120-30 kms against a 3m2 RCS fighter, and the known thing about JFT is that it has an RCS much lesser than 3m2, now, the KLJ-7 has a tracking range against a 5m2 fighter of around 110 km and you should know the MKI has more RCS than 5m2, so tracking range stuff comes down to pretty much even steven. this can be checked/ verified on google, do us all a favor please.

You should take the Bars tracking range values with a grain of salt. No one besides the Russians and Indians know the real tracking range. Wouldn't be surprised if its larger than 120km. Plus who knows if the radar has been upgraded over the years by the Russians. Also the JFT will have a RCS larger than 3-5 m2 when loaded with BVR missiles and Fuel tanks.

 

[DARKY]

Same questions could be asked from you would the opposition pilot be duffer enough to sit and wait for flanker to dance with tvc.

Ahahaha typical now you are downplaying legendary F-15 that still kills any bird. Please make some sense...

Well I knew you would come up with stuff like legendary F-15 and blah, blah....................take a break and guess Russians gift you a couple of dozen Su-35BMs hope that would make you understand.................again I am saying flankers won't win every time but most of the time it will..........if decent pilots are flying be it any country don't decide your argument on the basis that India has them look what it can do hope you understand.

 

[DARKY]

@ DARKY

There are so many flaws in your argument that i find it hard where to begin from in the first place.... Just a couple of points to start with although you seem to be dingling in the MKI fantasy, yet another case.

1. The BARS radar has a tracking range of 120-30 kms against a 3m2 RCS fighter, and the known thing about JFT is that it has an RCS much lesser than 3m2, now, the KLJ-7 has a tracking range against a 5m2 fighter of around 110 km and you should know the MKI has more RCS than 5m2, so tracking range stuff comes down to pretty much even steven. this can be checked/ verified on google, do us all a favor please.

2. KLJ-7 has a powerful anti jamming capability so some how IF MKI found the appropriate frequency to jam it which is just a by chance scenario since Indians do not know a lot about it, here will come the anti jamming mode for MKI to counter.

For God's sake you are supposed to be the Think tank here.

 

[VelocuR]

Remind you:

Guys, don't argue with the Indians. Its useless.

Let the day come when the first order is placed, that would be the day all the Indians would get shut up.

Indians said we have no CFTs with F-16s and then we saw the CFTs on PAF F-16s.

Indians said JF-17 is not BVR capable and just recently we saw FC-1/JF-17s flying with PL-12s, even though they were BVR capable much before that, similarly CFTs were there much before we saw it.

Indians said we don't have the A-100s, and then we saw them recently in PA service.

So, let them say whatever they want, this is their way to satisfy their ego.

Don't waste your energies on them.

 

[araz]

There many questions poping up once you start digging.
I never said no matter how, flankers would outmaneuver the opponent no it won't be Still literally they would win most of the time.
Its electronic stuff plus the kinemetics stuff combination which make them the most lethal of 4-4.5 gen. Planes.
Such a luxury can't be afforded on planes like F-15 simply due to design of fuselage.
Planes like JF-17 are like babies before this beast................lets leave the fighting part to our pilot they know better than us.

Darky
Just to tell you a little story, i met an Ex RAF pilot. He was full of praise for the Typhoon. However, one of the planes he was very vary of was the Gripen. His statement was that due to its size , inspite of having a good radar, it was really difficult to locate this plane.
With Indo Pak scenario, no one is going to go in with their radars on but rely on info from Awacs. SO most likely thing is thatyou will have a jolly difficult timelocating a small plane without A radar signature. On the contrary the SU 30 is a big plane and easily visible from a distance on account of its size. this will remain a problem for the IAF.
Araz

 

[araz]

For God's sake you are supposed to be the Think tank here.

So put a counter argument rather than putting one liners forward. This is not a good way to prove your point.At least you are being given a fair chance to prove your point . AVAIL IT!!!!
Araz

 

[ironman]

Darky
Just to tell you a little story, i met an Ex RAF pilot. He was full of praise for the Typhoon. However, one of the planes he was very vary of was the Gripen. His statement was that due to its size , inspite of having a good radar, it was really difficult to locate this plane.
With Indo Pak scenario, no one is going to go in with their radars on but rely on info from Awacs. SO most likely thing is thatyou will have a jolly difficult timelocating a small plane without A radar signature. On the contrary the SU 30 is a big plane and easily visible from a distance on account of its size. this will remain a problem for the IAF.
Araz

Araz saab, I have met a PAF pilot in this forum. Who is very famous in this area and has worked with General Dynamics..

At General Dynamics we did a study of Flankers and its impact on our Business Development efforts internationally and the results surprised us.

We need to be very careful when comparing Flankers with other aircrafts. Realistically, it is one of the best if not the best among the 4th gen. brood.

I will try penning down a post based on the lessons learnt.

We can put BVR capable F-16s and JF-17 against any aircraft in the Indian inventory but SU-30 is a beast which will not be easy to kill. Though US has devised scenerios to confront and tame it if and when needed.

I'm not saying MKI is invisible.. but at least, ball is our court now.

 

[Drawn_Sword_of_God]

I dont think Pakistan can get the J-11b at this moment because ive heard its using russian engines.

 

[Windjammer]

Araz saab, I have met a PAF pilot in this forum. Who is very famous in this area and has worked with General Dynamics..

And I know of an SU-30 Commander, who was in the UK for a JSCC.

I'm not saying MKI is invisible.. but at least, ball is our court now.

Well according to the same Commander, if he ever went into battle, he would prefer his old Stead, the Mirage-2000.
I guess that ball is still tossing around.

 

[nightcrawler]

Aren't the Radar (NIIP Tikhomirov N001VE) ; Engine (AL-31) & even the cannon (Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30-1)...all Russian in Chinese J-11??