Pakistan Navy interested in J-11Bs

[araz]

sir do you think it is economically possible?

and do you suggest eastablishing a naval air fighter wing must come before
1)getting more effective frigates with better AAW abilities
2) modrenizing th submarine fleet, as of now we have only 3 agosta 90-B that can be considered on par with modren technology.

Arsalan Aslam

The problem you have is that you are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. If you develop the surface AND SUB SURFACE wing and leave the air arm weak, the indian Navy airplanes will have a field day and you wont be able to do anything about it. You can try and defend with J10/F16s and probably do a very good job with it , but the problem of loitering time and survivability over the sea in case of a hit/accident remain. As such it seems a good move to provide Navy with 2 Sqds of J11s or planes of that ilk.
Now your next question of financial viability is covered by the urgency of the need. As to the J11v/s J15 debate, it is unlikely to happen tomorrow in any case and I think till such time that the Chinese dont bring WS10 on line, we will continue to be at the mercy of the Russkies which we might not want to do. Once WS10 comes on line, there is no problem securing a planewhether it is J15 or J11 depends on what the chinese provide to us and what comes out better on PAF evaluation. I have been a bit out of touch but I gather you are suggesting J15 due to its more robust landing gear. If we are going to operate them from land then it does not matter at all. But the way thechinese are progressing one doesn't know what is going to happen tomorrow much less in a couple of yrs. So like all of us arm chair generals watch this space.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[Arsalan]

so the air wing is to be set up to defend the surface fleet from airborne thread and you rightly suggest that the F-16 and JFT MigHT come into play in such a role but it will be a 50/50 gambel.
my point is let thake the positive 50% from above equation and build up a strong fleet first. then we can go and set up an air wing. i mean it is not really proactical to get arond 30 jet to defend 4 frigates.
however, this is completely my personal point of view and the facts might be otherway arond. i hope you will understand what i meant to say.

thanks for the response.
Arsalan Aslam

 

[fatman17]

if the planes are ought by he navy,then does pns MEHRAN have he necessary equipment for maintenance of hese jets or will they be stationed at PAF masroor? , may sound like a stupid question!

for a small/medium size navy to have its own air-arm (fighter/maritime jets) would be a luxury in my opinion. when the PAF can provide that 'role' 24/7 with a dedicated maritime strike sqdn it shd suffice IMHO.

 

[muse]

for a small/medium size navy to have its own air-arm (fighter/maritime jets) would be a luxury in my opinion. when the PAF can provide that 'role' 24/7 with a dedicated maritime strike sqdn it shd suffice IMHO.

Security a luxury?? That's how we got the Mehran attack, isn't it? And this 24/7 dedicated squadron, is it anything like the dedicated squadrons in Peshawar and elsewhere which enabled the Abbottabad incident?

Pakistan's security challenges are not going away and they will not diminish, in fact they will increase -- with a turn around in US and NATO relations with Pakistan, the energy challenege and the possibility that such energy may be accessed through the EEZ, a dedicated air arm, to my thinking, is something we should begin planning for now.

 

[araz]

so the air wing is to be set up to defend the surface fleet from airborne thread and you rightly suggest that the F-16 and JFT MigHT come into play in such a role but it will be a 50/50 gambel.
my point is let thake the positive 50% from above equation and build up a strong fleet first. then we can go and set up an air wing. i mean it is not really proactical to get arond 30 jet to defend 4 frigates.
however, this is completely my personal point of view and the facts might be otherway arond. i hope you will understand what i meant to say.
thanks for the response.
Arsalan Aslam

The problem is the time scale of acquisitions. You will have to develop both the capabilities simultaneously to ensure that you dont leave a loose end exposed. This is not going to be a case of acquiring one and then the other. As to J11/F16/JFT debate will again depend on the available funds and the agreement from the supplier to supply the platform.

for a small/medium size navy to have its own air-arm (fighter/maritime jets) would be a luxury in my opinion. when the PAF can provide that 'role' 24/7 with a dedicated maritime strike sqdn it shd suffice IMHO.

I would agree with that but with the proviso that it needs to be under the auspesis of the navy rather than the AF so that the resopurce does not get diverted.
Araz

 

[araz]

Security a luxury?? That's how we got the Mehran attack, isn't it? And this 24/7 dedicated squadron, is it anything like the dedicated squadrons in Peshawar and elsewhere which enabled the Abbottabad incident?

Pakistan's security challenges are not going away and they will not diminish, in fact they will increase -- with a turn around in US and NATO relations with Pakistan, the energy challenege and the possibility that such energy may be accessed through the EEZ, a dedicated air arm, to my thinking, is something we should begin planning for now.

I think the comparison is a bit unfair!! You cant equate what happened at Mehran,or in Abottabad, with the gist of fatmans post. No amount of planes will prevent the lunacy of leaving your assetts unguarded and exposed. ,but things have to be taken in perspective .
Araz

 

[MrIndianSikh]

J-11B is based on the SU-27 i'm guessing China must have made several if not many modifications to it probably equipped with AESA radar

 

[DARKY]

Funny.. the F-35C is single engined then eh genius??
Or a long series of naval fighters that were..
and where did you get the inside info on the J-11B's systems??.. wikipedia perhaps??

USN has a whole lot of Electronics and platforms such as E-2D, F/A-18 Growlers etc.........to literally make the Radar systems on technologically inferior Navel vessels which it usually fights........that makes sense as they can save money using stuff like F-35 besides their expertise in turbofan technology gives a lot of confidence that the engine won't shut down in mid sea...................now when we talk about countries like China/Russia/India forget Pakistan they don't have luxury to operate multiple Electronic Warfare platform like Americans in bulk..............even Anti jamming technologies are evolving at a faster rate and hypersonic cruise missiles on jets like flankers would be a game changer again a simple explanation "Better electronics+weapons load+Better range=bigger plane+more power=twin engines=more maneuverability=better safety.
And yeah Wikipedia is good for starters any one is not born with knowledge, try using the links provided there u'll gain access to a very good database in short span of time rather than hunting Google.

 

[DARKY]

You need to qoute a source for this assumption. As far as i know, WS10 has only been tried along with AL31, on a trial basis. There might have been a problem with J10s in the past but currently there performance has been exemplary. As to single VS twin engined debate, it is a cost consideration for PAF. We have extensively evaluated the plane and like it very much and we will get it in the near future.
Araz

we'll you people have had a lot of discussion on the WS-10 and its problems here itself on PDF, The thing on newer J-10B is another variant which can only be evaluated when it comes in regular service...................Chinese are good businessmen they know how to sell their stuff you see J-17, when PAF could have had say Mig 29/J-10A/Rafale in lesser no.s but far-far better than what you got, considering the opponent's flankers on the otherside,
I don't want to fuel an off topic debate here but BARS can jam and make KLJ-7 useless hence blinding the plane at same time Mig 29SMT/Rafale would have been a better option.

 

[araz]

we'll you people have had a lot of discussion on the WS-10 and its problems here itself on PDF, The thing on newer J-10B is another variant which can only be evaluated when it comes in regular service...................Chinese are good businessmen they know how to sell their stuff you see J-17, when PAF could have had say Mig 29/J-10A/Rafale in lesser no.s but far-far better than what you got, considering the opponent's flankers on the otherside,
I don't want to fuel an off topic debate here but BARS can jam and make KLJ-7 useless hence blinding the plane at same time Mig 29SMT/Rafale would have been a better option.

If you have the money , you go out and buy whatever you want, if you dont , then you improvise. It is funny that you have the MKI which according to indian posters is the bees knees, yet when it comes to J11, you advise us to go out and buy the rafale.
WS10 may have had problems but these have largely been ironed out and we have started seeing J11s with at least one WS10. As you know it takes time to iron out any engine issues and achieve consistent reliability and so it may come about that in a yr or 2, that stage might be crossed and we have a reliable alternative.
I am amazed at the audacity of Indian posters in assuming that when it comes to moneyand materials, Russia will remain in your pockets while you go around buying from all over the world. Russia wil move on as well and may sell AL31 to us , which might make life easier for PAF.
As to BARS blocking KLJ7 dont make the mistake of thinking PAF is sitting quietly and not doing anything .Things are moving at a rapid pace with JFT and you have indications of it if you are bothered to sift through the info on this and other fora.
Araz

 

[DARKY]

If you have the money , you go out and buy whatever you want, if you dont , then you improvise. It is funny that you have the MKI which according to indian posters is the bees knees, yet when it comes to J11, you advise us to go out and buy the rafale.
WS10 may have had problems but these have largely been ironed out and we have started seeing J11s with at least one WS10. As you know it takes time to iron out any engine issues and achieve consistent reliability and so it may come about that in a yr or 2, that stage might be crossed and we have a reliable alternative.
I am amazed at the audacity of Indian posters in assuming that when it comes to moneyand materials, Russia will remain in your pockets while you go around buying from all over the world. Russia wil move on as well and may sell AL31 to us , which might make life easier for PAF.
As to BARS blocking KLJ7 dont make the mistake of thinking PAF is sitting quietly and not doing anything .Things are moving at a rapid pace with JFT and you have indications of it if you are bothered to sift through the info on this and other fora.
Araz

I never said J-11 is a bad platform, rather I have been insisting PN to go for J-15 which would not require much modification for them.

What I meant to say was if you are paying say 5 billion US $$ for 250 JF-17 same money could have bought around 120-130 Mig 35 with Zhuk-AE AESA, TVC, SAP 518 ECM pods, SAP 14 jammers which would have been a formidable platform against any existing 4.5 gen. plane including MKI.

And about bold parts IAF is not sitting either BARS are being replaced by the new NIIP AESA radar which has been designed for the PAK FA.

 

[araz]

I never said J-11 is a bad platform, rather I have been insisting PN to go for J-15 which would not require much modification for them.

What I meant to say was if you are paying say 5 billion US $$ for 250 JF-17 same money could have bought around 120-130 Mig 35 with Zhuk-AE AESA, TVC, SAP 518 ECM pods, SAP 14 jammers which would have been a formidable platform against any existing 4.5 gen. plane including MKI.

And about bold parts IAF is not sitting either BARS are being replaced by the new NIIP AESA radar which has been designed for the PAK FA.

In the Indo Pak Corridor, most of our positions would be defensive. For this we need cheap readily replacable single engined fighters. JFT fits the bill to the utmost.We dont need twin engined fighters as we dont have enough depth and our pockets are empty.
As to J11/J15 debate, I have already mentioned that if I remember correctly, the j15 was made for carrier use and it seems ulikely that PN would ever have a carrier. The chinese have a habit of modernizing planes in accordance with tech available so whatever we end up buying will have the latest chinese tech that they are offerring to us.

 

[MZUBAIR]

PAK will only be able to get J11 Engines, if China starts manufacturing its [J11] Engine, WS-10A .

 

[DARKY]

In the Indo Pak Corridor, most of our positions would be defensive. For this we need cheap readily replacable single engined fighters. JFT fits the bill to the utmost.We dont need twin engined fighters as we dont have enough depth and our pockets are empty.
As to J11/J15 debate, I have already mentioned that if I remember correctly, the j15 was made for carrier use and it seems ulikely that PN would ever have a carrier. The chinese have a habit of modernizing planes in accordance with tech available so whatever we end up buying will have the latest chinese tech that they are offerring to us.

To obtain a credible defensive force against a superior enemy air force PAF would have to loose their pockets either ways..............i.e. Either you buy better planes like Mig 29/J-10 in bulk or buy JF-17+SAM systems in bulk...............only JF-17 won't do.
Now about J-11/J-15 thing PN would have to get J-11s modified for naval operations which is not with J-15.

 

[DARKY]

J-11s would req. different Radar, avionics, mission computer software..............modified airframe to withstand dense air at low altitude, more powerful engines and different weapons package which would not be the case with J-15 +it would have TVC and could fit in smaller hangers of PAF and operate from shorter airstrips besides being more rugged.