Pakistan Navy Frigates & Destroyers Information pool

[Rashid Mahmood]

How many Sea Kings we bought recently ? 7-8

• 2 to be used on 2 Dutch OPV
• 2 to be used on 2 Swift Corvettes from USA
• 4 to be used on Milgem corvettes

Seems like just about right what we are getting

We bought 7.
3 will be operational.
4 cannibalized for spares.

 

[Readerdefence]

We bought 7.
3 will be operational.
4 cannibalized for spares.

Hi so all in all how many operational after cannibalisation
Thank you for your reply

 

[syed_yusuf]

Hi so all in all how many operational after cannibalisation
Thank you for your reply

9 operational with 7 capable of anti-ship and anti sub opps
remaining 2 are for transport etc.

 

[Blue Marlin]

some really nice pics of the f22p, best I've seen so far, do note they do look old.

 

[syed_yusuf]

i think PN should have bought and build them in numbers not 4 but 12 in one go to cut cost and replace all junk that it operates. Pakistan economy was good at the time of the offer. they should have taken it then. one F-22P is carries more punch than any 2 type-21 or even PNS alamgir. 12 of F-22P could have restored the balance and would have given PN a much needed space to plan for next acquisition and build. if they could have bought f-22P from the word get go with VLS anti air systems, they could have serve as a core item for PN for long time. fast forward, PN now could have focused now on destroyers and corvettes to enhance its operations capabilities.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

i think PN should have bought and build them in numbers not 4 but 12 in one go to cut cost and replace all junk that it operates. Pakistan economy was good at the time of the offer. they should have taken it then. one F-22P is carries more punch than any 2 type-21 or even PNS alamgir. 12 of F-22P could have restored the balance and would have given PN a much needed space to plan for next acquisition and build. if they could have bought f-22P from the word get go with VLS anti air systems, they could have serve as a core item for PN for long time. fast forward, PN now could have focused now on destroyers and corvettes to enhance its operations capabilities.

That's why they should take their time with new frigates. Best to avoid MILGEM Ada and Tiger-class/upgraded F-22P and take the jump to the costlier - but much more capable - designs. IMO buy the 4 CSOC FFGs from China, but up-equip with the best possible over-the-horizon-radar (OTHR) and active phased-array radar (APAR) suite available in the East and tall VLS for LACM, make it ready for a long-range SAM when it is available.

If you need lighter ships to complement those FFGs, then get the LF-2400, but with low-cost subsystems and weapons. If you have the CSOC FFGs with OTHR and APAR, you don't need long-range radars on the LF-2400, just get a decent fire-control radar (FCR) for under $15 m, like the Saab Sea Giraffe AMB. For anti-air warfare (AAW) just aim for short-to-medium range coverage, e.g. Umkhonto EIR with CIWS and/or FL-3000N. Also consider producing your own sub-sonic sea-skimming anti-ship missile and lightweight torpedoes. Have 8 LF-2400s.

 

[alimobin memon]

Wargame: red dragon Is RTS game on pc. If you have played it you can get the idea that ships with limited Anti Ship Missile are mostly going to miss I know its a game but most of military personnel today play simulators and games to mentally prepare what could become in some scenarios. MOST of CIWS will be destroyed coming their way. A good VLS is important that could incorporate more than 8 missiles. While Indian navy is large force expect ships to work in group while 4 f22p total have 32 Anti Ship Missiles the Indian navy can fire at least twice. We should not only increase the AA capability with VLS but if PN Ship has 32 VLS system than a 16 AA 16 Ashm should do a balanced ship is always good. While for defending F22p is already good with Electro Optical Incorporated radar Type 730B would provide Point defense.

 

[Gryphon]

That's why they should take their time with new frigates. Best to avoid MILGEM Ada and Tiger-class/upgraded F-22P and take the jump to the costlier - but much more capable - designs. IMO buy the 4 CSOC FFGs from China, but up-equip with the best possible over-the-horizon-radar (OTHR) and active phased-array radar (APAR) suite available in the East and tall VLS for LACM, make it ready for a long-range SAM when it is available.

If you need lighter ships to complement those FFGs, then get the LF-2400, but with low-cost subsystems and weapons. If you have the CSOC FFGs with OTHR and APAR, you don't need long-range radars on the LF-2400, just get a decent fire-control radar (FCR) for under $15 m, like the Saab Sea Giraffe AMB. For anti-air warfare (AAW) just aim for short-to-medium range coverage, e.g. Umkhonto EIR with CIWS and/or FL-3000N. Also consider producing your own sub-sonic sea-skimming anti-ship missile and lightweight torpedoes. Have 8 LF-2400s.

If naval HQ-9 is also 6.8 m long (inc. booster) , the CSOC IDEAS frigate already has its LR-SAM.

Milgem Ada is required for its superior ASW capabilities, so if a larger ship provides fleet level AD, well good.

i think PN should have bought and build them in numbers not 4 but 12 in one go to cut cost and replace all junk that it operates. Pakistan economy was good at the time of the offer. they should have taken it then. one F-22P is carries more punch than any 2 type-21 or even PNS alamgir. 12 of F-22P could have restored the balance and would have given PN a much needed space to plan for next acquisition and build. if they could have bought f-22P from the word get go with VLS anti air systems, they could have serve as a core item for PN for long time. fast forward, PN now could have focused now on destroyers and corvettes to enhance its operations capabilities.

PN should try to acquire some second hand ships, as it did in early 90's.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

If naval HQ-9 is also 6.8 m long (inc. booster) , the CSOC IDEAS frigate already has its LR-SAM.

Milgem Ada is required for its superior ASW capabilities, so if a larger ship provides fleet level AD, well good.



PN should try to acquire some second hand ships, as it did in early 90's.

ASW prowess is contingent on the sonar and lightweight torpedo (LWT) suite. We'll have to see where the PN looks to for those if it intends to make the MILGEM a solid ASW asset. Like the Agosta 90B upgrade, I suspect they'll just opt for a hodgepodge of Turkish, German, British and local (e.g. MSL TAS) systems.

 

[alimobin memon]

Our F22p are completely capable of getting equipped with re loadable AA systems namely revolver or VLS systems if the Hq 9 turret area is properly utilized.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The missiles in front could have been done better

The launcher is positioned incorectly could easily have included 16 SAMS in front
There is enough space to fit two 2 missile units side by side (Each carrying 8 missiles)

 

[Gryphon]

Our F22p are completely capable of getting equipped with re loadable AA systems namely revolver or VLS systems if the Hq 9 turret area is properly utilized.

Yes, get rid of the FM-90N launcher, fit 8-cell Denel VLS module in the elevated deck area for 35 km range Umkhonto EIR (when available).

Not sure if 16 cells can be fitted in this space.

*I assume Denel VLS is similar to Sylver A35 in length.

The missiles in front could have been done better
View attachment 437374
The launcher is positioned incorectly could easily have included 16 SAMS in front
There is enough space to fit two 2 missile units side by side (Each carrying 8 missiles)

View attachment 437376

With FM-90N, this ship is a sitting duck.

ASW prowess is contingent on the sonar and lightweight torpedo (LWT) suite. We'll have to see where the PN looks to for those if it intends to make the MILGEM a solid ASW asset. Like the Agosta 90B upgrade, I suspect they'll just opt for a hodgepodge of Turkish, German, British and local (e.g. MSL TAS) systems.

When dealing with submarines, it comes down to detection. If you are detected first, you are dead already.

Sonar suite aside, MILGEM Ada has much lower acoustic signature and RCS than any ship the PN fields. Plus the ability to data-link with MPA's. This is what I mean by 'superior ASW capabilities'.
PN needs ASW corvettes: Ada good, LF-2400 better.

Best case scenario:
PN buys LF-2400 and equips it with new Chinese 7m VLS which could be fitted with 8x4=32 DK-10 and 8 CY-5/Yu-8.

From Jane's:

Development of the CY rocket-assisted torpedoes has progressed in lockstep with the YJ-series SSMs, with the subsequent CY-2 and CY-3 rocket sections derived from the turbojet engines based on the C-802 missile. However, it became apparent around 2014 that a new and much more capable rocket-assisted torpedo system, the CY-5/Yu-8 (its nomenclature is somewhat confusing because the system is called the CY-5 and the associated weapon is identified as the Yu-8 ASROC-type missile), had entered service in the latest generation of PLAN frigates and destroyers with vertical launchers and is carrying the new Yu-11 lightweight torpedo as the payload.

The CY-5 system is understood to have been fitted to the Jiangkai I (Type 054A) frigate and Luyang III (Type 052D) destroyer and is expected to be included in future platforms with similar vertical launch systems (VLS), combat management systems (CMS), sonars, datalinks, and ASW helicopters.

The CY-5 is believed to be in excess of 5.5 m in length and weighs less than 800 kg, including the torpedo. The maximum range of the rocket delivery vehicle is assessed to be approximately 16.2 n miles at a speed in excess of 650 kt. Targeting data may be provided by the ship’s own sonar suite, or acquired from a separate platform such as an ASW helicopter or another surface combatant via a datalink. The targeting calculations are processed in the CMS and the missile is pre-programmed to an intercept splash point, while the torpedo is provided with the search-and-attack pre-settings prior to launch.

 

[Tank131]

That's why they should take their time with new frigates. Best to avoid MILGEM Ada and Tiger-class/upgraded F-22P and take the jump to the costlier - but much more capable - designs. IMO buy the 4 CSOC FFGs from China, but up-equip with the best possible over-the-horizon-radar (OTHR) and active phased-array radar (APAR) suite available in the East and tall VLS for LACM, make it ready for a long-range SAM when it is available.

If you need lighter ships to complement those FFGs, then get the LF-2400, but with low-cost subsystems and weapons. If you have the CSOC FFGs with OTHR and APAR, you don't need long-range radars on the LF-2400, just get a decent fire-control radar (FCR) for under $15 m, like the Saab Sea Giraffe AMB. For anti-air warfare (AAW) just aim for short-to-medium range coverage, e.g. Umkhonto EIR with CIWS and/or FL-3000N. Also consider producing your own sub-sonic sea-skimming anti-ship missile and lightweight torpedoes. Have 8 LF-2400s.

I agree that they need to go for the large 4000t "057 style" design which should be centered around the HQ-9 series (which may eventually progress to HQ-26 which is said to be equivalent to SM-3). That beimg said, they need to work woth China, Turkey or South Africa to develop a medium ranged quad packed missile around DK-10/Hisar/Umkhonto. If these options are not suitable/doable /available, then Pakistan should seek other options like CAMM or K-SAM (something in the 40+km range). Depending on the configuration of the ship (if it only has the 32 cells up front or if it has an additional 16 mid-ship cells as has been shown on some renderings) i would put 16-32 HQ-9 and 16 cells for medium ranged SAMs (64 total). This will give the ship 4 tier air defense (HQ-9, MR-SAM, FL-3000N, 2 CIWS). Some cells can be rotated out for other uses like LACM or CY-5 depending on the mission.

For the F-22P, i would change the FM90 for a 16-24 cell VLS (with the same quad packed MR-SAM). Although given an 8 cell vls umkhonto launcher fits in a smaller area on the Hamina class, if that wasn't possible replace the FM90 with 1-2 24 cell FL-3000N (shorter range but many more missiles). Upgrade the electronics with a smart s mks 2 and better cms.

As for further or future ships, i would like to go with the MILGEM-G or LF-2400 (with the same mr-missile), but it that is not possible due to cost, I'd go for the Tiger class.

I still advocate attempting to get the remaining 3 Adelaides amd fitting them. With CAMM or K-SAM or umkhonto as a cheap stop gap.

 

[Gryphon]

PNS Saif

 

[alimobin memon]

do we have ships with 3d radar